crd97086 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I'm very late to this thread. By the end of 1970s I had collected 400 LPs during high school and college. I was dying at that point for a new format, even though I hadn't yet heard of one, that eliminated the damn pops. The availablity of 'imports' required a lot of driving to obscure music shops in my town. I have tried to go back to them lately, but the pops once again chased me away. I love my current CDP, Marantz SA-11S2, and just don't want to start the new monetary and time consumer of buying and selling turntables and phono stages, not to mention cartridges. The best of the best LPs and turntables may well be 'better' than CDs, but by really how much. I also have 600 CDs, I can't afford to start over at this point in my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I have never understood how a magnificent, wonderfull, compliant, fantastic cartridge designed to vibrate to pick up audio from 20 to 20khz automatically anticipates that a click or pop is approaching and will not respond to it. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I have never understood how a magnificent, wonderfull, compliant, fantastic cartridge designed to vibrate to pick up audio from 20 to 20khz automatically anticipates that a click or pop is approaching and will not respond to it. JJK I've often wondered what the performance and cost would be of a modern impulse noise reduction system might be. Can't even recall the brand now, but the original INRS was a good start. However, the bucket brigade IC's used to delay the audio long enough for the INRS to make an edit were pretty crude. One would thing that "on the fly" editing of analog audio using a digital system could be far more effective and cheaper today. Seems like the original was a few hundred bucks...most LP freaks would be all over a system that could minimize or eliminate the occasional pop without significant audio degradation at that price today. Of course, if you digitize the LP it's easy and very effective to do this in the digital domain with programs like Sound Forge. But the vinylhead isn't going to do that. Dave Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 The availablity of 'imports' required a lot of driving to obscure music shops in my town. I have tried to go back to them lately, but the pops once again chased me away. I love my current CDP, Marantz SA-11S2, and just don't want to start the new monetary and time consumer of buying and selling turntables and phono stages, not to mention cartridges. The best of the best LPs and turntables may well be 'better' than CDs, but by really how much. I also have 600 CDs, I can't afford to start over at this point in my life A good TT, tonearm and cartridge if properly aligned will minimize pops and clicks, and reduce the irriation they cause, IMO.The alignment includes leveling the 'table, assuring the cart has the proper downforce, and is (1) horizontal or close to it as seen from the side, (2) vertical as seen head-on from the front, and (3) pointing straight ahead with the stylus riding precisely parallel to the goove as seen from above. The last requires a precise protractor such as the one that has usually come with the Shure M97xE. That cart might be a good choice if you need a new one. However, you do need a good arm and table to get the benefit from any cartridge. Here's a good guide to cartridge mounting and alignment: http://www.audiophilia.com/features/cartridge_setup.htm. Anyway, I and quite a few others on the forum are quite happy with our LP setups and their low or absent record noise (see my equipment profile for a pricey version). Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Larry hit the nail on the head in regards to the TT setup. The new vinyl releases are also using more virgin vinyl, and are much, much quieter. I very rarely hear clicks and pops now. Dave, were you thinking of the SAE 5000 Noise Reduction Unit? I bought one in 1978 along with an original DBX 3bx, andstill have both today even though I don't use either of them. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Yes, Mike, that is the one. As to the DBX, that's still a good unit. Heck, I still prefer my 1976 117 to none at all. I have as hard a time listening to an LP without dynamic range correction as I do compressed digital. Some aren't too bad, but the vast majority just sound compressed. Further, I am used to black, near digital silence between cuts. I think vinyl heads have a "learned" response to ignoring this issue, but having been used to correcting it for 35 years it really bugs me. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Many thanks for the link to cartridge setup and alignment. I got my records out again for the first time in many, many years, and was really kind of astonished by 1: how orgainic and seemingly tangible the sound was, where notes had real depth in addition to just sounding clear. I received a gift of an older Denon table from a friend that is really great, and has put me in search of something along the lines of Clearaudio Concept (MC). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKub Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Although many records do sound better than some CDs, let us not forget the mastering trends. As stated before, mastering was different for vinyl. The initial CDs put out in the 80s of 60s or 70s rock music were, in some cases, rushed into the digital format with poor results in some cases. I concur with many of you about surface noise driving me crazy. I have only one record of the Firebird Suite by Stravinski where the noise was impressivly low. But when compared to the SACD recording, there is not much difference to my ears and on my system. Modern mastering (and a good mix) makes it possible for the CD formatto sound quite good. Let us also not forget the fact that as the stylus approaches the center of the record, there is a drop in higher frequencies. This is gradual, but play a CD and a record with the same content and you will notice the difference yourself. As far as the digital world goes, I notice more clarity and detail going from 16 bit to 24 bit word depth than doubling the sampling rate...go figure... An interesting experiment we did in the studio was to record a short piano passage at 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 192 kbps at 24 bits, then downsample all into 44.1/16 and the most noticable improvement was going from 44.1 to 48. Not what we expected. Itdid sound better as the sample rate went up, but the increase from 44.1 to 48 was the least amount of an increase, yet it was most apparent. I do have some LPs and do play them, but that's only because I don't have the CD... As bandwidth increases, the excuse for compressed formats goes away. HD tracks offers recordings which are downloadable at much better sample rates than CDs. One day I hope to have a music server and would love to listen to 88.2/24 or other hi-res formats.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 LarryC wrote: "The alignment includes leveling the 'table, assuring the cart has the proper downforce, and is (1) horizontal or close to it as seen from the side, (2) vertical as seen head-on from the front, and (3) pointing straight ahead with the stylus riding precisely parallel to the goove as seen from above. The last requires a precise protractor such as the one that has usually come with the Shure M97xE. That cart might be a good choice if you need a new one. However, you do need a good arm and table to get the benefit from any cartridge." You do realize that with a pivoted arm, the stylus is lined up perfectly (with zero tracking error) at only two points on the record surface, don't you? The rest of the time, it's a bit off. Proper cartridge alignment reduces the error, but doesn't eliminate it. Some types of alignment geometry, like Baerwald, may have the cartridge appearing to sit crookedly in the headshell, but still being well-aligned with the record grooves. The cardboard "protractor" that came with my M97xE had it's hole punched off-centre and was unuseable. Instead, I had it aligned at the local high end audio shop with a large aluminum tool and it sounds very good now. As for horizontal, are you referring to the cartridge, which bolts to the tonearm, or to the tonearm itself? In most cases, there's a small range of tonearm heights that will sound good, but the height that gives most realistic cymbal sounds may not be the height that gives best female vocals, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Oh, yes, I know about two-point perfection. I think the usual tracking error is only .9 degree per inch, which seems far less than any error I could correct visually (if I understand what the "inch" is). The only alternative I know of is straight-line tracking, which I'd rather not fuss with -- although MaxG seems to been successful with his Clearaudio SLT arm. Besides, I prefer the Basis Vector to any other arm I've heard. Regarding crooked in the headshell, the key is to make the cantilever (not the cart body) parallel to the record groove at the point of stylus tangency. I like the Shure protractor because I can get a good sighting of the cantilever aiming straight down and parallel to the center line (I need a good, short focal length magnifier and good lighting to see it clearly). It doesn't matter if the cart body isn't lined up with a protractor's parallel lines. But I would be a little doubtful if the cart body points any direction but straight ahead. Too bad your Shure protractor wasn't perfect. The ones I've seen have been precisely made. BTW, with those protractors, I think it's a good idea to use a pin or needle to slightly "dimple" the precise point the stylus point is supposed to rest on. It's hard enough to juggle everything if the stylus is scooting around. Also BTW, be sure to temporarily disable the anti-skating while doing this part. As for horizontal, are you referring to the cartridge, which bolts to the tonearm, or to the tonearm itself? In most cases, there's a small range of tonearm heights that will sound good, but the height that gives most realistic cymbal sounds may not be the height that gives best female vocals, for example. The cartridge. I'm actually referring to "horizontal" as parallel to the record surface. Once you get to that point, it's often best to experiment with slightly raising or lowering the back end of the cart for preferred balance of highs, lows and mids. One direction (up or down) raises the highs and the other lowers them, but one can play with it to find out. I expect the optimal angle varies some from record to record, but I'm not fanatic enough to make changes once I've set it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Yes, the linear tracking arms are ideal in terms of tracking error, but bring a whole new level of complication. As well, I saw a quote from a high-end tonearm designer who thought that tracking error is not as big a problem as you might think. As he put it, "It's not like you suddenly go "Ahh!" as the stylus passes through the two points of zero error when you're listening to an LP." As for vertical tracking angle (VTF), I'm using a Technics SL-1210M5G turntable, which allows you to adjust the tonearm height very precisely and repeatably, even while a record is playing, so you can easily compensate for cartridge height, as well as mat and record thickness, although I'm not picky enough to reset it for thicker or thinner LPs. There's no need to shim the cartridge. Even my older SL-1400MK2 had that adjustment, although it was a bit less convenient than the SL-1200/1210 system. The Technics decks use similar geometry to Stevenson, which apparently favours the inner grooves of the record. When set that way, the cartridge lines up with the tonearm and looks "normal". When set up to Baerwald specs, the cartridge is over two millimeters further forward, and twisted a bit clockwise in the headshell. It looks a little odd, but it sounds just fine. I was a bit skeptical, so I Googled a bit and came across this link, which cleared everything up for me in that regard.http://www.vinylengine.com/twisting-your-cartridge-headshell.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txinliner Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 i like both allthough if i had to choose my favorite it would be cd.could be because ive got more invested in digital than analog equipment wise and product Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axz Hout Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 test this thread is not locked unless I have some magical powers bestowed upon by Amy for always commenting on how fabulous she looks......the thread is not locked...I posted a reply and you guys should be able to reply to my last post. Looks like the last post before mine was posted with the do not allow replies to that post....but that does not impact the rest of the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 test this thread is not locked unless I have some magical powers bestowed upon by Amy for always commenting on how fabulous she looks......the thread is not locked...I posted a reply and you guys should be able to reply to my last post. Looks like the last post before mine was posted with the do not allow replies to that post....but that does not impact the rest of the thread. Wow! I've never seen that before.... and you're right, the thread isn't locked. Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 The post is "Locked" and allows no replies! Interesting..... Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axz Hout Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axz Hout Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Seti, next time your at "End of an Ear", walk north about 80yd's for the best salsa & beef enchiladas in town - "Little Mexico". Perfect end to a great day of vinyl mining. I'll give it a try. I was thinking I could easily live in Austin. This summer sorta scared that out of me. How many days of a 100 or higher did you have? Ya'll must be crispy critters. Nah, your far too wierd for Austin:-0 LOL How youz doin CornMan? In answer to the OP, because VINYL RULZ[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Nah, your far too wierd for Austin:-0 LOL Is that possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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