SW-115 becomes reality.

[Quiet_Hollow]

...

[neo33]

Are you making fun of all of us who do not own DIY sub or are you making fun of Klipsch or are you making fun of Epik compare to your DIY sub or are you making fun of all those sub companies compare to your DIY sub or are you making fun of yourself or are you making fun of me or are you making fun of both me and you or are you making fun of all of us?

[CECAA850]

I think he's just HAVING fun, not making fun, at least that was my take.

I thought it was funny[:$].

[neo33]

I know he is not making fun of anything and I was just "HAVING" fun myself.

Now, just for the sake of argument, how long does it take (including finding the right driver(s) and amplifier(s), constructing the cabinet, installing all of the component, making measurements and adjustments, etc.) and how much is material cost for a DIY subwoofer that will kill all of the commerical subs out there?

My point is that due to the labor cost, it is not worth it to DIY. Prove me wrong.

Lets get some numbers down. Lets say I want to build a sealed sub with dual 18" drivers and 2400W RMS amplification. The matreial cost for quality components (i.e. driver(s), amplifier(s) and cabinetry) will run at least $750. Now, say I need at least 40 hours to construct the cabinet, installing the component and making measurements and adjustments. So if I make $50/hour, it would run about $2,000. So the total cost is $2,750. If I need additional adjustments, it will cost more. Now considering the fact I don't have cabinetry skill, so I could make many mistakes in constructing the cabinet. So by the time I am done, how much time have I spent and how much material have I used to compensate for my mistake? Paid someone to construct the cabinet? At what cost? What about measurements and adjustments? How much time will I be spending doing this? What if I don't have the proper tools? What about my skill and experience? In the end if I don't like it, I can always sell it. But who will buy it and how much are they willing to pay for it if it doesn't meet their expectation? Time is money! Is it worth it? You get my point.

[CECAA850]

If you're going DIY and a sealed configuration, yes, it's expensive. A popular alternative is one of the tapped horn Danley clones or possibly a billfitzmaurice build. An example of an awesome DIY build that's cheap and a great performer is the Cinema F-20 build. Driver approx 175, amp, roughly 225, mdf 100, misc adhesives, gasket material, fasteners, etc 50-75. Total material under 600. Tremendous clean output to 20 Hz. If you put a dollar ammount on your time, you can certainly make a case that it's not economically feasable. If you pay someone to do it then it's noy di"Y" any more. Me personally, I don't charge myself labor and enjoy piddling in the garage building stuff. The value of DIY is getting a tremendous product and getting it for material only. If you bugger something up, there's always bondo[].

As far as time required, all boxes are different. I've never put a watch to a build because I'm really s-l-o-w as I'm not a carpenter and have pretty much taught myself everything I know about building boxes. I also don't have a woodworking shop so I have to adapt to what room I actually have. In order to make any sawdust, I have to pull my wifes car out, get out what I'm working on, get out my tools and work. When I'm done, I have to put away all my tools, put away my project and sweep up. I spend almost as much time getting stuff out and putting things away as I do working on the box. I do it because I enjoy it. If you're not having fun building something, it's not worth the effort. When you're done however, you have a product that will compete with commercial products that are much much more expensive.

As far as measuring goes, if you stick with a proven and tried design, there's no measuring to do, especially if you're building a sealed box. At least not in the build phase. The driver manufacturer tells you how many cu ft the driver needs and you go from there. Any sub, wether it's DIY or commercial should be measured in room and callibrated to properly integrate into your system.

Carl

EDIT, that 600 dollar sub will most likely hang with your dual sealed 18.[]

You've got 750 in material invested. How much is a commercially offered dual sealed 18 going to cost you?

[neo33]

I see your point. And of course you don't charge yourself. But I just don't have time to take up such a task. Also I don't have the cabinetry skill so that $600 sub may ended up costing more.

But back to my original point: Is the Epik Empire better than the Klipsch SW-115 based on paper? IMO, that is a resounding YES! Will the Empire be better than the SW-115 in the real world performance? IMO, another resounding YES! Is the Empire a better value for your money than the SW-115? Definitely!

[CECAA850]

But I just don't have time to take up such a task.

That's a valid consideration.

[Groomlakearea51]

Report Card Time: SW-1XX's (this case...SW110's)

No problems, just takes time to dial them in. The only problem I would say is that the phase control could also have a 45, and a 90 degree setting.

Finish is heavy duty and cleans up well. My wife likes them as they are so plain jane that they "disappear" into the living room and bedroom background.

One trigger switch went bad (would come on, but not turn off....); Klipsch immediately replaced the plate amp and no problems since.

Looks like for the price, they are a very good choice.

Anyone with a report card on the 115's?

[psg]

I see your point. And of course you don't charge yourself.

Some people have the flexibility to work for $50 an hour for as many hours as they want. It doesn't make sense for them to work less and build a 40-hour DIY project just to save money if they don't enjoy the process. On the other hand, I enjoy the DIY process and work for an annual salary with no possibility for extra pay; if I work longer hours, I do it for free. It makes a lot of sense for me to spend $500 on a DIY sub that outperforms $2000 commercial subs. Plus, I wanted a horn-loaded sub to match my fully horn-loaded speakers, making for a 4-way fully horn-loaded system. You can't even buy commercial horn-loaded subs (but could pay a carpenter to build a THT). You can buy the Danley tapped horn DTS-10 for $3400 + 15% tax in these parts of Canada. I don't think that includes amplification or EQ.

[Utard]

So if I make $50/hour, it would run about $2,000. So the total cost is $2,750. If I need additional adjustments, it will cost more. Now considering the fact I don't have cabinetry skill, so I could make many mistakes in constructing the cabinet. .

Based on this you should change this to $10. Unskilled labor would not be able to make $50 per hour.

[Skylinestar]

any buyers yet? user reviews?

[CECAA850]

.

One trigger switch went bad (would come on, but not turn off....); Klipsch immediately replaced the plate amp and no problems since.

What's up with Klipschs subs and their plate amps anyways???? Jeesh. You wouldn't think that it would be that hard to find a decent supplier of reliable electronics. I wonder who they used for the RSW series? You never seem to read of problems with them.

[themrclean]

I was able to hear the new SW-115 when I went to buy my RT-12D last night. We did an A/B comparison of the two and the SW-115 is a very competent subwoofer. The bass was not as tight or as musical as the RT but was much louder in the same room. I would very much consider owning one or two of these.

[mustang guy]

... I wonder who they used for the RSW series? You never seem to read of problems with them...

I would like to know the answer to that too. I am sure this is unintentional on Klipsch's part.

I would love to see Klipsch fix this in it's new series, and perhaps come up with a swap out solution to people who have purchased high end subs within the last few years. IMO, it should be done at cost (no loss) to Klipsch, and should not be considered a recall. Furthermore, it might be done as a core replacement so as not to allow people to buy plate amps at a low cost.

[artto]

Klipsch is famous for making accurate and efficient horn-loaded speakers not subwoofers. Epik makes only subwoofers. They currently have two models unlike Klipsch which carry a dozen models. You can only be good at what you do best. Even the top of the line Klipsch P-312W at four grand with maximum acoustic output of 123dB @ 30Hz is no match for the $799 Empire which can do 124dB @ 24Hz.

I think the performance of the Epik may have been accidentally misstated. The Data-Bass website shows 124dB output at 125Hz, not 24Hz (CEA-2010 Max Burst).

Also, the Epik seems to be a subwoofer of choice if you need extended higher frequency output. It runs out of headroom near 20Hz.

"The Empire is apparently boosted near 20Hz to extend the frequency
response, but the filter seems to be a high pass so it will not be able
to make good use of room gain if it is present in the very deep bass
like an unfiltered sealed subwoofer would". (Data-Bass.com)

"Compression performance is very good above 30Hz and almost all of the
compression occurs where there is EQ boosting applied to the system (we
suspect clipping)" (Data-Bass.com). (above where I need the performance most)

A quick look at Data-Bass.com's measurements shows a rather sharp roll off at 20Hz.

I was considering one or a couple or even a quad of these until I saw the rest of the data. I may still order a quad and try it out for 30 days but it doesn't seem to dig down deep enough for what I'm looking for (my system is already audibly pretty solid down to 25Hz) and I don't need or want the higher frequency extension with Khorns.

My local Klipsch dealer Simply Stereo has offered to order me (one) Klipsch SW-115 and try if for two weeks. Ken Shauer, the owner said he'd take if back and refund 100% if I didn't like it and use it as a store demo. I've known Ken since the early Hi-Fi Hutch days when I bought my first Klipsch, a very upstanding guy.

[StephenM]

I think the performance of the Epik may have been accidentally misstated. The Data-Bass website shows 124dB output at 125Hz, not 24Hz (CEA-2010 Max Burst).

Hi Artto,

Databass shows 105.8dB @ 25Hz for the Epik Empire, but that's at 2 meters, ground plane (outdoors). Klipsch reports their maximum output at 1 meter, 1/8th space (corner loaded). In order to convert, you need to add 6dB for going from 2 meters to one meter, and an additional 12dB to go from 1/2 space to 1/8th space. As such. the Empire would output 123.8dB @ 25Hz, 1/8th space, 1 meter.

[neo33]

I think the performance of the Epik may have been accidentally misstated. The Data-Bass website shows 124dB output at 125Hz, not 24Hz (CEA-2010 Max Burst).

arrto, please tell me how did you arrive at that?

The Data-Bass measurements are clearly provided here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=50&mset=48.

The maximum passible (CEA2010) SPL for the Epik Empire at the lowest possible frequency of 12.5 Hz, 1/8 space, 1 meter is 111.5 dB.

[artto]

I think the performance of the Epik may have been accidentally misstated. The Data-Bass website shows 124dB output at 125Hz, not 24Hz (CEA-2010 Max Burst).

Hi Artto,

Databass shows 105.8dB @ 25Hz for the Epik Empire, but that's at 2 meters, ground plane (outdoors). Klipsch reports their maximum output at 1 meter, 1/8th space (corner loaded). In order to convert, you need to add 6dB for going from 2 meters to one meter, and an additional 12dB to go from 1/2 space to 1/8th space. As such. the Empire would output 123.8dB @ 25Hz, 1/8th space, 1 meter.

Gottacha [] I was thinking it must be something like that. I wasn't exactly sure how that translated.

BTW, the Epik Empire has made my short list. I'm seriously considering a quad of these. Very cost effective indeed. And with four of these in different locations shouldn't I expect smoother, more extended response and better room gain? It seems like a very good and cost effective solution for my objectives. Four subs, eight powered 15's, resulting very little cone excursion and lower distortion. It's certainly the low cost solution winner so far.

[artto]

I think the performance of the Epik may have been accidentally misstated. The Data-Bass website shows 124dB output at 125Hz, not 24Hz (CEA-2010 Max Burst).

arrto, please tell me how did you arrive at that?

The Data-Bass measuremens are clearly provided here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=50&mset=48.

The maximum passible (CEA2010) SPL for the Epik Empire at the lowest possible frequency of 12.5 Hz, 1/8 space, 1 meter is 111.5 dB.

Neo, please quit being so defensive! I only quoted what I saw at Data-Bass. AND, I am, in fact, seriously considering buying a quad of these. So thank you for bringing this to my attention []

Four powered subs with eight powered 15" drivers for $2800? AND a 30 day trial/return policy period? How could one go wrong?

[StephenM]

And with four of these in different locations shouldn't I expect smoother...response

Obviously it will be a little more complicated than just dropping them where they fit and expecting results, but yes, quad subs can help with smoothing out in room response.

more extended response and better room gain?

No, but since you'll have more output in the lower frequencies by virtue of having more subwoofers, with a bit of EQ and room gain (dependant upon your room), you could conceivably achieve reasonably flat response to 20Hz and below.