Automatic versus manual tables

[lo123]

I have a Dual 1229 with a Stanton 680 EE cart. Both are from the early 70's. After a 15 year or so vinyl hiatus, I recently had the table lubed and new stylus installed in the Stanton. I've been happily occaisionally cleaning and listening to some of my surviving old LPs and recent thrift store finds that are not in bad shape and clean up well.

So a couple months ago, I decide to buy a couple of remastered new vinyl albums. These are 180 gram thicker albums. Reading up on this, my tone arm is probably not setup optimally for these thicker albums. The Dual does not have a true vertical tracking angle (VTA) adjustment. Bummer. It has a feature for playing a stack of albums with the multi-album spindle adapter, but reading up on that I find that this mechanism is prone to failure from years of non-use, i.e., use at your own risk. Double bummer.

I'm running an Onkyo two channel 100 Watt receiver that was found at a thrift store for cheap in great condition. It has a phone input stage. It's driving Forte I speakers (bought these from Wuzzer fall 2010, they sound very nice). So, I don't have a super pre-amp and amp setup and my speakers are efficient Klipsh. My investment at this point for everything including the Dual refurb is under $700. I'm looking at options for my new vinyl habit, which is expensive but sure sounds better than most 50 cent records from Goodwill. Concerned that without a turntable VTA adjustment, I'm damaging these new records.

Checking several on-line sources for turntables, I see the usual suspects. Project. Music Hall. Clearaudio. Rega. Thorens. Some come with a cartridge, some do not. Most are manual, few are automatic (only some of the Thorens from a cursory search). Most have belts versus direct drive.

Reviewing my listening habits, a manual table does not seem like a good fit. I like to hit the Start switch and know that the tone arm will cycle back to rest when the record has been completely played. The thought of manually queing start and stop just does not grab me.

Then there is direct drive versus belts. These newer table have all sorts of configurations for the motors, belts, power supply units, etc. My idea of fun is not fumbling with belts to change from 33 1/3 to 45 RPM, even if I only do that every blue moon. Give me a switch or a pushbutton to do that. And power supplies for a turntable? Sounds like future obsolete part that is custom to the table.

So, some questions for my two channel brethren.

Most new Thorens tables are autmatic, and price does not seem too outrageous for a fairly decent table.
Anyone have experience with new Thorens products verus old units? I've read some reviews that are less than flattering.

Other than Thorens, what are my options? There are vaious DJ tables that are probably automatic. I've not searched very far beyond Thorens for automatic tables, could use some suggestions. Talking available new tables.

At some point, I may have the finances to expand into a pre-amp and amp setup. Whatever I decide to get now should be suitable for that possible upgrade path.

Any thoughts appreciated.

[artarama]

Your asking a lot of questions here.

The first one to address is how much Moo-La do you want to spend? Second is does that amount of money include a cartridge?

Every system is only as good as it's weakest link so you also have to ask yourself how far up the audio food chain do you want to go, knowing your other components need to get to that level. Kind of a balancing act really, but I think you do need to kind of set a realistic "ultimate" goal that you are comfortable with for your whole system and then work toward that end with each component one at a time.

Welcome back to the asylum [8-)] or is it pure bliss [ip] I always get those confused!

[Rick]

OK.

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[Boxx]

OK.

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Please Leave....

[russ69]

From my point of view, if you are stacking up the albums, you are just playing a juke box, you are not really sitting down and listening to the music. You may as well use a CD changer at that point. YMMV.

[jbone]

From my point of view, if you are stacking up the albums, you are just playing a juke box, you are not really sitting down and listening to the music. You may as well use a CD changer at that point. YMMV.

I second that!

[JJkizak]

Speaking of juke boxes we had one (Seaburg home unit) in our bar operated by a telephone using 2 digit numbers (dialed by drunks). This was a 50 album unit for about $600.00 on sale. This thing went through hell hours wise and I could never figure out why those record albums would still sound so good after a zillion plays. It was my job to repair the unit.

JJK

[lo123]

OK, some clarifications, should have taken more time with this post, sorry for confusion.

I do not plan to use a multiple album spindle. The Dual only has one vertical tracking angle adjustment (VTA), it is for using the splndle or at least to provide an alternate tracking angle if you are using the spindle. My point was only that the Dual does not have an independent VTA adjustment. Not much point in buying expensive new vinyl just to drop the records onto each other. So, single play only.

The tables I've looked at on-line with VTA seem to be few and far between. The sites I've looked at include Acoustic Sounds, Elusive Disc, Needle Doctor. Even checked Amazon.

For budget planning, yes, I understand the need to map out where I want to wind up and balance my future system. At this point, table without cartridge under $500, auto, with VTA. Possibly Shure M97 series or something similar that has good reputation with the table that I buy.

Other system components like pre-amp and main amp will have to wait, at this point I have only stereo receivers on hand with phono inputs.

So, looking for feedback on automatic tables with VTA that is actually an adustment, not just a two point setting like my Dual. Primary reason I'm considering a new table is to accomodate the thicker vinyl and also upgrade to a newer table and cartridge. Of course, if I just ignore VTA and hope I'm not damaging my new vinyl, the Dual is fine.

thanks -

[artarama]

Other system components like pre-amp and main amp will have to wait, at this point I have only stereo receivers on hand with phono inputs.

So, looking for feedback on automatic tables with VTA that is actually an adustment, not just a two point setting like my Dual. Primary reason I'm considering a new table is to accomodate the thicker vinyl and also upgrade to a newer table and cartridge. Of course, if I just ignore VTA and hope I'm not damaging my new vinyl, the Dual is fine.

If you look long enough you should be able to get a very nice upgrade to the Dual for $500 used. I would look for mid to late 70's vintage tables or the Denons of the early 80's. Almost everyones top end tables from that time were good. My favorites are Thorens, Pioneer PL series and Kenwood KD 500/ 600 series with the fake stone very heavy plinth. All of the "better" ones will be fully manuel though. A few may be semi-automatic (manual start with pick-up and return/shut-off at the end of the record.)

I don't think the extra thickness of the vinyl is going to make an audable difference, at least at this point with your system. I also don't think the small change in orientation of the stylus is going to increase wear. The inevitable dust buddies are going to do more harm.

A new cartridge on the Dual will likely get you the biggest jump up assuming it is working correctly and has good solid cables/connections. A cartridge like the M97 should be very versitle and work good on many tables to come down the road.

[rpampt]

One thing that adjustible VTA is for is to adjust for variation in height of cartridges. Some are taller, some are shorter. Although not as convenient as adjustible VTA, you can pick up cartridges of different heights and subsitute in different thickness platter mats to accomplish the same thing, but maybe on a smaller scale. Then have a different for standard height and 180g height.

[Cal Blacksmith]

OK, I guess I may be out of touch here but I do like the way my B&O sounds though the cart. is prop. to them. It is semi automatic, starts and stops records, and switches between 45 and 33 depending on which button you push.

I own this one and it has served well for years I bought it new in the mid '70s. I also own a full manual table and you have heard both though the B&O was on a AVR and did not have near the quality of sound that the Planar had, connected to tubes.

OK, I am a heathen but I am a happy heathen

[moray james]

Your Dual is a very good table.Rven the arm is a good sounding unit. If they don't sound very good they are not set up properly. Okthe Dual dose not offer you adjustable VTA.but so what? I cannot think of any arms in the price range that you are considering which do have adjustable VTA and any that do are going to be a PITA to mess with so it is not like you can slap on a disk and change the VTA to suit the disk you just put on. There are some arms which provide on the fly adjustable VTA but not for your whole budget can you go there. You are thnking about adjustable VTA better to think about replacing the Stanton that you have. You can pick up a lot of great information (that's an analog pun) over at vinyl engiine dot com. I think a good used deck would be your best bet but for not a lot of cash out you can look at the music hall decks, I dont know it those will actually sound any better than your Dual 1229.

Ny first real table was a brand new 1229 with a Shure M95ed and my buddy bout at the same time a Thorens TD160 with a SME 3009 and Shure M95ed/ Now back then neither of us knew squat about table set up but the Thorens was supposed to have been set up at the shop. We both likerd the Dual better. A month later he returned the Thorens and bought a 1229 also. I am not saying the 1229 is the better deck because I don't thinkt that it is but the Dual did sound better by a fair margin than a not so well set up Thorens. The 1229 is a good deck. Find a cartridge which suits it and be happy while you look for a serious step up. That's just my opinion and that and a couplee of bucks will buy you a cup of coffee all day long. Best regards Moray James.

[artto]

This thing went through hell hours wise and I could never figure out why those record albums would still sound so good after a zillion plays.

JJK

The reason is this: The record player in those jukeboxes most likely used a pickup with a stylus profile that was spherical, or concical at best. The on-edge profile of those styli have a rather small contact area on the groove walls. More modern eliptical and line-contact styli come in contact with much greater surface area of the groove. It's most likely that these well-worn extensively played discs, when properly cleaned and played with a modern line contact stylus are actually having the stylus ride on surfaces which have not been "seen" before. Its almost as if the stylus sees the groove surface as a brand new record.

[]

[artto]

In my experience VTA is very important. It's also a pain-in-the-@ss, as really, changing VTA also changes other geometry. Unfortunately, its a very necessary adjustment to get the absolute best from an LP. When the geometry of the arm and pickup are correct something sort of magical happens. You'll know when you've got it dialed in. The most obvious thing is the almost complete disappearance of groove noise. Yes, there will still be some between tracks, especially if you have the gain turned way up, but there's none or almost none of the shoowsy running groove noise. Everything becomes very focused.

I haven't really looked very closely at many of the newer offerings, but in the past VTA adjustment was pretty much relegated to manual transcription turntable/higher quality arm combinations. I guess the thought being that if someone prefers to use the ease and convenience of an automatic arm lift then why would they go through the trouble of messing around with VTA?

BTW, many of us "old timers", back in the day, used to mark down the correct VTA for the record/arm/pickup combination on the LP or log it somewhere for reference so we could go back and duplicate it the next time we played the recording as not all records and pickup stylus were made at the same standard VTA. You'll be doing good just to get it in the ballpark for recordings you listen to the most.

[kaiser SET say]

"BTW, many of us "old timers", back in the day, used to mark down the correct VTA for the record/arm/pickup combination on the LP or log it somewhere for reference so we could go back and duplicate it the next time we played the recording as not all records and pickup stylus were made at the same standard VTA. You'll be doing good just to get it in the ballpark for recordings you listen to the most."

Now you're scaring this old timer Artto[*-)] On my Amadeus GT I have a fixed headshell as Bill designed it, I can adjust VTA with the raising or lowering of my arm tower however I'm hoping your just refferring to marking each album only in the instance of changed arm/pickup as I sure as the devil never change my VTA setting when going from a 140g piece of vinyl to a 200g one[8-|]

[artto]

"BTW, many of us "old timers", back in the day, used to mark down the correct VTA for the record/arm/pickup combination on the LP or log it somewhere for reference so we could go back and duplicate it the next time we played the recording as not all records and pickup stylus were made at the same standard VTA. You'll be doing good just to get it in the ballpark for recordings you listen to the most."

Now you're scaring this old timer Artto On my Amadeus GT I have a fixed headshell as Bill designed it, I can adjust VTA with the raising or lowering of my arm tower however I'm hoping your just refferring to marking each album only in the instance of changed arm/pickup as I sure as the devil never change my VTA setting when going from a 140g piece of vinyl to a 200g one

LOL ~ then scared you should be!!!

But seriously, the reality is not all vinyl were cut at the exact same tracking angle, which I believe, was supposed to be standardized at 15 degrees? And beyond that, whats to say the tech cutting the record just was a little sloppy, or just hadn't checked things in while and in the meantime something got bumped or whatever and put out of adjustment? And then there are the few instances where it was done deliberately because they thought it sounded better that way?

That's why I said its probably good enough under most conditions for most people to do well enough just getting it in the ball park. But none the less ~ when its really dialed in, you will hear it. Don't forget, back in the day, this "preparing the LP ~for play~ " (pun intended) was kind of a ritual for some folks. I never really cared to take it that far (all the time, LOL), but I do have my preferences.

[DavidF]

Glad to hear the old Dual work horse is still giving service after all these years. It is a good unit for full automatic operation if its still in good working order. I have an appreciation for Duals of this era.

VTA is likely a hard to find feature on lower cost tables these days. The Dual 704 and 721 of the same era had this feature but it was really intended to be a one time adjustment for different cartridges. Not good for adjustments for each disk you play.

As I think about it, your concern about using thicker platters assumes your current set up is spot on accurate. Is it? I for one wouldn't know how to go about aligning the tracking angle.

[lo123]

Thanks for all the replies and perspectives, much appreciated.

David, I've had the same thoughts about the cartridge alignment as it currently sits. When I had the table lubed and reburbed a couple years ago, the shop installed a new eliptical stylus on the Stanton. Not sure if they removed the cart to do that, if they aligned it afterwards, etc. From what I remember when I installed it 30+ years ago I did not perform a special alingment. So, possibly time to look into that regardless of a cartridge upgrade.

Wayne, good to hear from ya. Yes, your table both sounded fine, I recall the Planar but possibly you played the Edgar Winter album on the B&O on my second visit to your place, been awhile. Not much California travel these days, hope all is well.

One thing I found on one of the on-line audio sales sites was a metal alignment "gauge" which sets on the platter, hole for the spindle, various lines and marks and a dimple to set the stylus into for the final alignment. Costs $50. Reading the operator manuals for several Thorens tables as downloads from their site, I found the same template in one of the manuals towards the back of the document. I'm guesing that something like this is required to do the actual cartridge alignment, have to research this some more.

Again, thanks for the ideas and feedback, my journey continues! Listening to a re-issue of Heart's album with Crazy On You, etc., right now, found it for a buck in super condition at a used record store. For one dollar, cartridge alignment not that important. For reissues of Cat Stevens and Neil Young albums at $30-35 a pop, more concern!

[oldtimer]

For one dollar, correct cartridge alignment will sound a lot better.

[Cal Blacksmith]

Larry;

To be honest, I do not remember what we played on the B&O but I think it was "they only come out at night" We should have played the systems in reverse order though as the Yamaha AVR is not as "musical" as the SF amp but then I would not expect it to be but it sure was a bit of a let down going from the 2 ch to the TV room!

That B&O is still able to get the job done though and it does get played evey now and then.

It is good to get a word or two in here and it has been a while. You know how I was into coffee when you came over, well I have quite a bit more equipment there and a good portion of my yearly pay went into coffee stuff as well as my time in the coffee board. I am kind of a fixture there.

I see you have F1s as mains down stairs... I do hope I had something to do with making that happen! F1s are very nice indeed and sometimes with the large volume of quality heratage and near hearatage speakers Klipsch makes, they can get lost in the topics.

Good luck with your search for a new TT you just need to get some good tubes to drive the F1s with !!