Zen Traveler Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 If anyone is worrying about Government coming and taking their "wealth" then they need to watch what they are spending their money on. That makes no sense.We're 15 Trillion in debt with plans to only spend more(the math is so crazy it's beyond insane, regardless of politics), I have kids that will have to pay the bill but can't. My comment to you was in regard to what people with money did and my point is that wealthy people don't sit around not spending money because of what the Government will or will not do in this political environment....Remember something President Bush mentioned about "the majority of Americans have money in the Stock Market," well that may be true but with the Dow near 13,000 a certain percentage of Americans who owns the majority of the stocks actually make their INCOME from buying and selling these Commodities and as it jumps all over the board this next year, realize that as it goes down from here those folks call that "profit taking," and aren't worried about "the Government," taking much more than a few percentage points regardless of who gets elected. Insofar as your children and the trillions that you mention, it will be the Government that will find solutions as is their responsibility...One just has to look at the Republican primaries to see how much influence "the media"has on swaying opinion (how many front runners have there been?) and with all of the SuperPacs free to fund those media organizations it really is going to be a convoluted process where I don't have an answer to how much your children can afford to pay, but there are entities and people here that may have more resources than yourself to help cover part of your share of the debt. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 If anyone is worrying about Government coming and taking their "wealth" then they need to watch what they are spending their money on. ...So a few years ago(2008) when I had lotsa work they said it was the worst depression since the great one.Now that most people I know are working for less or not at all things are really looking up????? Yeh, stupid media. Fish, 2008 was the end of the Economic Bubble which the Credit Default Swap Fiasco exposed! [] Remember that whole TARP Bailout thing? Regardless of which political party you suppor,t Government failed us big time because there wasn't anyone keeping an eye on these financial instruments that were being traded as "insurance." Keep in mind that this incident/situation brought down the Global Economy and it hasn't recovered since, but has fared better here in the USA than elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merkin Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 TDK america says: where I don't have an answer to how much your children can afford to pay, but there are entities and people here that may have more resources than yourself to help cover part of your share of the debt............................................................................................................................................................................................................................. ......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... I don't want to pay Fishes share. Or anyone else for that matter ......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... I would like to just be left with mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 ...I don't want to pay Fishes share. Or anyone else for that matter....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... I would like to just be left with mine. I don't want to pay for either of y'alls share if you are doing well, but I still want our Government funded to do the things that need to be done...Unfortunately "The Media," perpetuates the "Us against Them" mentality for financial gains when in reality the focus should be on what we want the Government to do and how to make it more efficient...Btw, when I refer to "The Media," I am not talking about just what is considered liberal, but also the Right wing sources as well. Heck, look at how many Presidential candidates were/are on the Fox News payroll. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 went to a few watering holes....everything was packed. Young adults are spending money. Most of these folks live for today and would rather spend their money on a good beer and burger than to get into the invest, loose money, reinvest to catch up, loose that too, etc, etc, while the fat cats get fatter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merkin Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 TDK: "I don't want to pay for either of y'alls share if you are doing well, but I still want our Government funded to do the things that need to be done." ---------That is the rub. Who funds the government (WE DO) all funds come from our work sweat and risk taking. The next part of the problem is "things that need to be done" Who decides what "needs" to be done and at what cost. I would suggest that the government already does too much of things that don't need to be done especially by them.---------------I need to get rid of chrome. I see that all my spacing is run together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The next part of the problem is "things that need to be done" Who decides what "needs" to be done and at what cost. I would suggest that the government already does too much of things that don't need to be done especially by them. I respect your opinion and even though I wasn't in favor of TARP or the Auto "Bailout" they both helped my stock portfolio immensely. I also own a small business and appreciated Congress and the Obama Administration (it was my #2 issue in the 2008 election after National Defense) trying to tackle Healthcare, but the solution they came up with wasn't as good as having a Public Option, imo. I also don't think it's going to pass Constitutional muster and my guess is this issue will be debated again...I can't imagine Romney would change things much if he were elected, but it would be interesting to see what any of the other Republicans come up with to counter the Affordable Health Care Act....Btw, my biggest beef with the Affordable Healthcare Act is that the Insurance companies are going to be making a killing and still hold all of the marbles. [:S] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHF63 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Insofar as your children and the trillions that you mention, it will be the Government that will find solutions as is their responsibility That would be the funniest line of the last two decades, if it weren't so sad. Lou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Insofar as your children and the trillions that you mention, it will be the Government that will find solutions as is their responsibility That would be the funniest line of the last two decades, if it weren't so sad. Lou Don't bet against the USA! That Debt is real but can be dealt with if we elect the correct legislators. Fwiw every country has a central Government to take care of National matters and if you think you are living in a unique time realize that our Government represents us...If you not personally, at least it does in a collective sense and as Americans we are all in this together. I am tired of "the media" making it sound like we are at war with each other. To get back to the topic of this thread I feel that things ARE getting better collectively and the stock market and small businesses starting to pick up is a good sign....That being said I make most of my income through my business but see where the people that Fish mentioned that were making the REAL money are paying 15% or less and there are several "Corporations are people" folks that paid no income tax and that needs to be rectified as well. I am middle ground on this...I have no problem letting ALL of the Bush tax cuts expire (except for people under the poverty line) and electing people to run within that parameter. Rich people will still make a bunch of money but pay slightly higher taxes...Fwiw, that is the way it was prior to the Bush Tax cuts, 2 Wars and Healthcare costs going up over 100% since that time and I am in agreement that our Government should deal with the National Debt and policies that it covers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Things seem to be getting better in Oregon ...VERY slowly, but better. The stores are more crowded, but as someone said, it's hard to say if that is because there are fewer of them. Our house is worth much more than it was when we bought it in 2004, but not as much as it was a few years ago. We should careful not to assume that small business people are necessarily fiscal conservatives. Of the three locals I know well, one is conservative, and two liberal (two are in construction and one is an audio dealer). We see that one of the forum posters who is in business is self-described as middle ground, and indeed seems to be, to those who can perceive a middle ground. If taxes on the middle class have to go up -- eventually -- to get out of the debt mess, I think middle class folk will tolerate it if and only if the wealthy have been shown to have been paying their fair share for the few years before, and if banking has been properly regulated. There is not agreement on what caused the economic crisis, but I suspect the lack of watchfulness before the bubble popped, and behavior that should be criminal, if it isn't already, had a lot to do with it. One small way to show good faith would be to "scrap the cap" on payments into Social Security (a proposal from Left of center) and from now on to award Social Security payments on the basis of need (a proposal from Right of center). But we should be careful to not scapegoat Social Security, since it has little or nothing to do with the deficit or our present economic woes, but changing the way it works (as above) could be helpful in the future. One of the saddest consequences of our condition is that the 20 to 30 year old group is finding it harder to get jobs (even jobs far out of their fields) than ever before in my lifetime. We can help them deal with paying for this crisis by increasing employment, putting in the Social Security reforms listed above, and an economic boom wouldn't hurt. Let's arrange one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 ...If taxes on the middle class have to go up -- eventually -- to get out of the debt mess, I think middle class folk will tolerate it if and only if the wealthy have been shown to have been paying their fair share for the few years before, and if banking has been properly regulated. There is not agreement on what caused the economic crisis, but I suspect the lack of watchfulness before the bubble popped, and behavior that should be criminal, if it isn't already, had a lot to do with it. I COMPLETELY agree with the first part of your sentiment but there is agreement on what actually caused the economic crisis and that was when it was shown that AIG was not going to be able to make good on their Credit Default Swaps and if that were to happen the entire Global Banking Industry would fail. The American Government bailed out AIG and then the banks under the previous Republican POTUSA and Bill Clinton admitted that deregulating the banks was a mistake....What's crazy is that not much has been done about it except I guess they promise not to let it happen again. [:|] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 With our two party dictatorship having jointly abandoned the things we do best: space exploration, science, engineering, and technology, any improvements will be slow and temporary. Hate to sound so negative, but the path of our national leadership over the past few decades in these vital areas have so clearly damaged and continue to damage our prospects as to be certain. In space alone, the impact is far more pervasive than the public is aware. As I have contacts (I live near the LBJ Space Center) in the space industry, one former astronaut who has become something of a totally deflated old man estimated that, for the 2 trillion sent down the drain to bail out badly managed industries and corrupt banks, we could have produced FOUR Apollo scale projects and put 1.2 million people to work in high quality jobs...not to mention the spinoffs and eventual profit returns from the vast resources we now know are on the moon alone. To a person, all the eminent scientists and researchers I've met at various functions are privately completely unnerved and unable to comprehend our forfeiture of leadership. One headed for China, others to CERN, 2 to India...and many others to such private efforts as are ongoing. When you get to the point where a "leading conservative" (no names here as I know politics is verboten) says in public "Let's send (one GOP candidate) to the moon and (another GOP candidate) to the White House" you know we are commited as a nation to more super sized burgers and Walmarts as opposed to those fields that made us the most powerful and prosperous nation in history. When a nation cedes leading in science, technology, and engineering to others it is destined to follow where they go. Let's just hope the next "...small step..." is from another nation that will say "...for mankind..." as we did, and not for "our great leader" or something. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 When a nation cedes leading in science, technology, and engineering to others it is destined to follow where they go. Let's just hope the next "...small step..." is from another nation that will say "...for mankind..." as we did, and not for "our great leader" or something. Although I agree with your sentiment, insofar as the space program goes I'm not sure I want our Government funding as much as it did in the past because we can agree there are alot of things on it's plate as of now...That being said, I don't understand why more jobs aren't being created in the Healthcare field given where science and technology has taken us there...If there is a Nursing and Doctor shortage where are the ads on TV recruiting caregivers as an occupation? [^o)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Although I agree with your sentiment, insofar as the space program goes I'm not sure I want our Government funding as much as it did in the past because we can agree there are alot of things on it's plate as of now... How many of these things have an ROI like space, the super conducting super collider, safe, clean, efficient nuclear energy? Even the most hostile estimates of the ROI from Apollo alone are well into the blue ink. My first post-graduate professional position was with POCO Graphite, Inc, a subsidary of UNOCAL. We employed 500 people making a FAILED product. It was a micron sized, isotropic super graphite originally developed as a heat shield candidate for the shuttle. They went with the tiles instead. So, this stuff wound up being (and still is) used for heart valves (extremely strong and biologically inert), joint replacements, fusion reactor linings, Electrical Discharge Maching electrodes, and many other things having NOTHING to do with space. This is the rule rather than the exception. When you put dollars in space, anything you develop for use in that airless, microgravity, radiation filled, near 0 Kelvin to hot like hell environment is going to be the best in class for endless applications on earth as well. Besides that, you (and if we had followed up on our investment rather than simply shutting down Apollo) we'd already be returning a wide array of resources from the lunar surface that we are in dire need of. Certainly the rare earths that China has a monoploy on come to mind. Only our children maintain the wonder...the rest of us have become resigned to daily headlines about health care costs, budget deficits, gas prices, and other "issues" that are symptomatic of our national decline instead of headlines proclaiming yet another American triumph in the application of science, engineering and technology. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Although I agree with your sentiment, insofar as the space program goes I'm not sure I want our Government funding as much as it did in the past because we can agree there are alot of things on it's plate as of now... How many of these things have an ROI like space, the super conducting super collider, safe, clean, efficient nuclear energy? ...Only our children maintain the wonder...the rest of us have become resigned to daily headlines about health care costs, budget deficits, gas prices, and other "issues" that are symptomatic of our national decline instead of headlines proclaiming yet another American triumph in the application of science, engineering and technology. I agree completely with what you say about the ROI in the space program but those items you mentioned are decades old and the question could be asked, "what have you done for me lately?" I don't think that Space was/is the "final frontier" for Humankind and what you see as the mundane in Healthcare, negates the fact that we've progressed there by leaps and bounds in the last 20 years. Insofar as technology and jobs are concerned, the sky is the limit for R&D and there are jobs for people at every level of intelligence and expertise in the Healthcare field.. .Btw, I LOVE what the USA has done with it's Space Program but given all of the things still left to do on this planet, let the ultra-rich and Chinese continue on in that endeavor for the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 ...As I have contacts (I live near the LBJ Space Center) in the space industry, one former astronaut who has become something of a totally deflated old man estimated that, for the 2 trillion sent down the drain to bail out badly managed industries and corrupt banks, we could have produced FOUR Apollo scale projects and put 1.2 million people to work in high quality jobs.. I definitely can see where that would be a former Astronaut's POV, but I have no idea if his prediction would've come to fruition. That being said, bailing out the people we both clearly see in the same light, did help folks invested in the Stock Market ROI and a considerable amount of TARP was paid back by those "crooks." Regardless, my taxes haven't gone up and I refer back to where I agree with Garyrc on this issue. {Note: At the time I didn't think TARP was a good idea and thought the money should have been put into Healthcare and a safety net for all of those people who would have lost their jobs and investments.} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Well, if you don't accept the objective observations (the guy was a propulsion engineer and pilot, not a space cadet like me) then medical decisions must come hard. People without jobs don't buy stock. Further, and this is certainly personal opinion, we wouldn't have had to bail these people out in the first place if our science, technology, and engineering were still the unrivaled best in the world. To get away from my personal beliefs in space, energy, science and high technology, I still maintain that the same couple of trillion that went to whereever it went invested in our highways, railroads, national parks and other infrastructure would have created millions of jobs and much greater lasting value than saving mismanaged banks and industries. I mentioned before that I still use excellent facilities created by workers from the CCC and WPA days of the '30s. I wonder if anyone will walk into one of these banks even next year and think "Wow, I'd have to go to another bank across the street if the taxpayers hadn't bailed this one out!" Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Well, if you don't accept the objective observations (the guy was a propulsion engineer and pilot, not a space cadet like me) then medical decisions must come hard. People without jobs don't buy stock. Further, and this is certainly personal opinion, we wouldn't have had to bail these people out in the first place if our science, technology, and engineering were still the unrivaled best in the world. To get away from my personal beliefs in space, energy, science and high technology, I still maintain that the same couple of trillion that went to whereever it went invested in our highways, railroads, national parks and other infrastructure would have created millions of jobs and much greater lasting value than saving mismanaged banks and industries. Dave I accept what you are saying about him to be true, but I wouldn't necessarily let Stephen Hawking run our Government. [] The irony of your sentiment is that people seem to forget who bailed out the banks and extend that to the current POTUSA who did seem to try and funnel resources to maintain our highways, rail roads, and infrastructure although I do feel our National Parks are going to pot in the current political climate.... I also contend while "unemployed people don't buy stock," there are a considerable number of them who had their Retirement portfolios invested in them and if the government can help them in between jobs maybe can get back on the right track if the Unemployment numbers keep dropping...If not, the space program wouldn't have helped them in the current economical environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Well, this could cross the line and I am going to attempt to hold it. We, as a people, did away with the company/institution retirement system that served quite well for a long time. We did not replace it with anything except a parachute that might well have holes in it when opened, as it's dependent on the stock market. Very dumb move. Shame on us...what were we thinking? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I think big money in politics influencing the tax code to favor such schemes for the benefit of top corporate executives who just can't seem to skim enough out of the system with their voracious appetites constitutes less than we as a people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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