New Room- Khorns or not?

[deep3shot]

After hacking away on nights and weekends for 1.5 years with plenty of help from friends I am finally at the last stages of completing a room above my garage. This space is accessible only from a stairway within the garage ( not from upstairs of the house ). My intention was to have a "studio" style place for the family for homework, art projects, reading, listening to music etc.

While this project was ongoing I had picked up some pieces of audio gear that included Khorns. My hope was that the they would anchor a really nice system in this new room. Now that is almost done I am doubting that the Khorns will perform well due to the only location they will fit in corners is the short wall 11'-12' wide. My hope is that someone will chime in as to whether it is worth the effort of hauling them up there or perhaps not. In short will these sound terrible because of all the angles etc.?

Room specs: room length 31"; width 12' plus three (3) 60" x 60" dormers on north length and one 11' x 5' shed dormer on south length; ceiling ( 32" across ) and is approx 9' high; the roof is 12 x 12 pitch - 45 degrees.

west wall where the Khorns could go:

[deep3shot]

pic of north side or room:

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pic of east side of room:

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pic of south side of room:

[Chris A]

Now that is almost done I am doubting that the Khorns will perform well due to the only location they will fit in corners is the short wall 11'-12' wide. My hope is that someone will chime in as to whether it is worth the effort of hauling them up there or perhaps not. In short will these sound terrible because of all the angles etc.?

This is a challenge, for sure, but note, if you use a little care, such as carpet on the floor in front of the Khorns, and something absorbent on top of the speakers that could stick out a little in front of the front face of the speaker, you will probably have something to work with. Eleven feet corner-to-corner is about minimum that I've heard using Khorns, and it will require a little effort to get things right.

Of course, if you had a La Scala or Belle, you could put it in the center of the 31' long wall (with a partial false corner on the side with the stairs) in a 3-way--the classic setup recommend by PWK, which would probably sound pretty spectacular with absorbent tiles on the tops and carpet on the floor in front of the speakers.

The K-400 midrange horn in the Khorns lose pattern control at about 2 KHz down to its 400 Hz crossover to the bass bins. Putting something down on the floor and on the ceiling will help tame this excess acoustic energy and result in much better timbre balance. The same story is true for a center La Scala or Belle.

Chris

[Boxx]

I'll leave it to the experts regarding Khorn placement. My comment is on your room. It looks fantastic! You (and company) did a great job. Whatever system you decide to put up there will be going into a very usable space. Congratulations...

[deep3shot]

Cask05- Thank you for the detailed suggestions. I have spent quite a few hours reading this forum regarding treatments and I am aware that trial and error will likely dictate what works and what will not. You have given me starting points and I am grateful for them.

I should have also stated in my posting that I have La Scalas to fall back on but really want to tryout the Khorns as I have never even heard them in corners! Thanks again.

Joe

[deep3shot]

I'll leave it to the experts regarding Khorn placement. My comment is on your room. It looks fantastic! You (and company) did a great job. Whatever system you decide to put up there will be going into a very usable space. Congratulations...

Thanks for the kind words Boxx. When we bought this house 7 years ago ( at the top of the market = idiot me ) there was just a scuttle hole in the garage roof to stick a ladder up and peer into this interesting space. It had not decking, just joists and exposed rafters. The thought of leaving it hidden and inaccessible when it had much potential would be criminal. By the way I enjoy your posts ( not just this recent one ) on right this minute.

Joe

[Chris A]

I am aware that trial and error will likely dictate what works and what will not.

Looking at your handiwork, I'd say that building false corners would provide you the most flexibility in room placement. These are pretty commonly used--PWK used them himself in his room:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/96656/977678.aspx#977678

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/33966.aspx?PageIndex=1

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/53737/516349.aspx#516349

[tromprof]

Pretty room, but not ideal for k-horns with the corners on such a short wall. Because of the angle of the speaker being dictated by the wall your searing position would be close with all that room behind you. I would think your La Scalas with a good sub would work better. Having both, the La Scala does not sound all that different than a K-horn, and with some of the nice mods out there such as better crossovers and trachorns you might get a better upgrade going in that direction. K-horns properly placed are a great thing, but you have to have the room first. A tuba table sub works very nicely with La Scalas, esp. for music.

[Cut-Throat]

Congratuations on building a very nice looking Room!....Excellent work!

However, It has got some big problems for Audio!

In my opinion, you've got a bigger problem taming the room reflections, than finding proper corners for Khorns.

As Pictured, that room would echo like a church. The hard ceilings and walls and floors and windows would have sound bouncing and echoing at different intervals that any speaker would sound like crap.

So, here are my Recommendations.

1.) If money is no object, hire an acoustic company and tell them what you plan to use the room for.

2.) If you want to save money. You are going to have to educate yourself in treating room acoustics. There are a lot of books on the subject. This will lead you to doing a lot of expensive things. You be probably be getting some really thick carpeting on the floor. Adding Bass Traps to all corners (this can be expensive too). Accoustic ceiling treatment also. Wall treatments, window treatments etc. etc. ......This is a big job, but will be more rewarding than any electronics that you will buy.

3.) Once you do this Khorns will probably work very well. I had my Khorns in an acoustic friendly room, while I was building proper corners and was amazed how good they sounded just pushed close to a wall near a corner. Not sealed at all! .......

4.) Once the room is treated you could put one Khorn in a corner and one with a false corner on the long wall. Maybe 20 feet apart. The false corner could be in the middle of the room, 20 feet or so from the corner on the long wall.

Good luck and do it right!

[Chris A]

If you want to use the short wall, I'd recommend the one with the full corner, then use false corners to pull the Khorns out into the room a bit until the front of the speakers are slightly in front of the beginning of the right dormer window area (i.e., full-height ceiling) - that should minimize the early reflection issues on that side without having to put a bunch of absorbent panels on the right side. The left side might require absorbent panel(s) on the sloped ceiling area. Alternatively, a fair amount of absorbent on top of the Khorns, sticking out in front of the top surface by 4-6 inches may help to avoid panels on the ceiling, i.e., absorbing the midrange polars in excess of ~60 degrees from the horizontal exiting the Khorns.

The issue is early reflections right around the midrange horn exit, and and close-by reflectors next to your listening position. These areas need to have some sort of absorbent to decrease the first-bounce amplitude of the acoustic energy in those areas. Fortunately, it's pretty easy to attenuate these frequencies using acoustic absorbent materials that are relatively inexpensive (i.e., the lint-type squares or panels that Auralex puts out work well).

4.) Once the room is treated you could put one Khorn in a corner and one with a false corner on the long wall. Maybe 20 feet apart. The false corner could be in the middle of the room, 20 feet or so from the corner on the long wall.

This is part of that flexibility that false corners bring you that I was referring to. A tight seal in a false corner will prevent the "250 Hz suck out" that PWK wrote about in his "Dope from Hope" article on false corners.

Chris

P.S., the La Scalas will have the same issues since they effectively use the same midrange horns, albeit they are a little shorter than Khorns. Once you get Khorns into false corners, things get a lot easier to handle acoustically since you are decoupling the bass bins from having to physically touch two adjacent corners.

[dtel]

Looking at your handiwork, I'd say that building false corners would provide you the most flexibility in room placement. These are pretty commonly used--PWK used them himself in his room

My vote also, along with some room treatments a little later to stop any strange sounds from the shape of the room.

Great looking room, very cool.

[deep3shot]

Chris / Cut Throat / Tromprof / Dtel:

Thanks for all of your input. There is much for me to consider here. I had never thought of going the false corner route but it may come into play. One decieving aspect to the photos is it seems to exaggerate the length of the left ( south ) wall. In reality it is only 10' or so and the wall ( east- 1st pic ) I intended to put the Khorns on is 11'10" as I just measured when I got home from work. The room is more like a very wide hallway with dormers to make it feel larger. In order to get them even 15' apart I would have to place one nearly in front of the wrap around white bookcase. It would really dampen the asthetic of the room.

Likely it will take some combination of ceiling / wall treatments, false corner(s), and placement. I'll have to ponder on this while I finish my punch list of jobs to finish the room.

It is really very good of all of you to weigh in with such fantastic detail on what will improve the acustics. Forum members like me are lucky to have such a wealth of information shared so willingly. I am very gratefull.

[Exponential]

Great looking room, and challenging for loudspeaker placement. It looks like a pair of Cornwalls on the stepped-out walls between the three windows would work pretty well.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

You did a great job on the room. Beautiful.

But as stated, you have some issues with K Horns. So its time to look at the forest instead of the trees. I had been struggling for years with a pair of K Horns and where to put them. I have a game room, but I am putting split slate the wall where they would go and on the adjacent wall, I opened it up and put in railings. So I was kidding myself and kept thinking of ways to make K Horns work.

Then I stumbled on a pair of La Scalas. I can do the bass port mod and use the JBL drivers that I had for mid and high end in a pod mounted on top of the bin and use them in the room with the split slate wall. Then I thought about it and I have no corners that will work (most houses do not have such corners anymore). But I have plans for a shop where, I will spend a lot of time, and I can easily have corners, mounting the bass bins up high. I will spend a lot of time there so they will be used.

The point of the story is that it all seems so simple now that I am not trying to make the K Horn work in a room where it really will not work.

Try them, but if they do not work and you need to really compromise, sell them and get something that is easier to place. K Horns are REALLY DIFFICULT to place unless you either enclose the bass bins or somehow make the top drivers adjustable to angle out more. There is also the issue that the bass comes from two places on each speaker and needs some space to come together again (or a center speaker as a band aid).

Good luch and really nice work on that room.

[The Dude]

How about using the north wall, with some false corners. I don't know what your intentions are with the dormers on the left and right side, I all so don't know how it will effect the sound. But not tucking them all the way in but enough to get them out of the way may be more better for aesthetics. Very nice looking room I love the wood beams.

[The Dude]

A question more directed to the forum. What did people do in the 60's, and 70's with some of those architecture houses when they didn't have a forum like this to come and ask these kind of questions? Make it work I bet, I know I would have.

[deep3shot]

I am going to play with placement and treatments and see how well I can make them sound. Although my goal is to make these Khorns work up there I think there is a limit on what is reasonable to do so. If they work well and compliment the room in a way that looks great I will be thrilled. What I am not interested in doing is having to trip over them in a never ending quest for perfection while leaving the aesthetic and comfort of the room in shambles in the process.

I do have La Scalas that can be pressed into duty. In fact I bought Crites CT-125 tweeters and A 4500 networks for these and might just install them this weekend. Thanks for ideas and comments guys, I am learning alot.

[Turbox]

Regardless of what you do, That is one cool space. Not sure if the Horns would be good here...