Heresy I capacitor recommendations?

[Marvel]

@Chris, so basically 30 cycles near the crossover point. Agreed, I think that might be audible. Touché'

Would you hear much difference with a first order? Not sure if I could.

Bruce

[Marvel]

Chri...

Is that a piece of Heathkit gear in that pic? I have a couple of their bench power supplies with the same cabinets. I pulled a Mullard 6x4 rectifier out of one of them to use in my Merlin peramp.

Bruce

[Axz Hout]

t

[mark1101]

I am interested in this... is this where horns they do what they want within their design limits and the cap values just direct the concert? This being for passive crossover design. thanks chris

Yes. The same thing happens in active crossover designs. The advantage of the active is that when you see where the acoustic crossover occurs you can easily change the crossover programming on the processor to steer the "true" crossover exactly where you want it to occur.

[Axz Hout]

h

[mark1101]

Thanks. To keep with the thread......even though the acoustic crossover points are different than the specs of the passive crossover filters, obviously Klipsch has designed the crossover points to deliver the acoustic performance they determined was optimal.

[Axz Hout]

k

[Daddy Dee]

enlightenment is good [Y]

[Deang]

The mass roll off of the driver combines with the filter to create the acoustic crossover point. Also, the resulting slope is steeper than either the natural roll off of the driver or what the parameters of the electrical filter dictate.

[Axz Hout]

j

[Deang]

http://www.electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?i=970321 - what horn are you using? T-35 tweeter?

[Axz Hout]

j

[NOSValves]

Now to elaborate a bit on this, notice that Paul talked about the ESR

being "low enough". Notice also he did not mention the perils of

getting ESR too low. I don't think he overlooked that. He would have

liked to find ESR so low as not to be even measurable. Why? Because

ESR is bad, something we do not want, something to be minimized.

I

have tested enough of the old Klipsch film in oil caps to know that at

least by the 70s Klipsch used very low ESR caps. Most are over 1/2 ohm

by now, but sometimes I find one that tests down to around 0.1 ohm. So,

I infer from that the likelyhood of all of them being better than 0.1

ohms ESR when Klipsch installed them. I can't think of the mechanism

that would cause ESR to lower with age.

The proof is in the bright sound that emits from a pair of stock Klipsch A or AA crossovers when modern film caps are installed. I purchased and still own a set of type A's that started off with those god awful GE motor runs that you used to use Bob... I could not wait to get them out of my Lascalas and the stock old crusty type AA's back in. I then sent the GE motor runs crossovers off the Dean and he install Auricaps....I installed them and the brightness was even worse but the sound was cleaner... I used to listen to my Lascalas all day without pain..... With these modern caps I was constantly turning the sytstem down as I was working at my bench. So back to the stock AA's... Sure the GE had more detail but the balance of the speaker was gone..... The Auricaps were cleaner and even more detailed then the GE's but again the balance was gone.... In the end if you are going to use a Stock A or AA you need the OIL!!! If you want to have the best of all worlds and the ability to change out drivers and tailor the sound with driver adjustemnt then you need something designed with and voiced with modern transparent capacitors from day one and the A and AA are not it!!

My journey with my Lascalas has been long aand hard! I spent tons of money over the last 10+ years learning the hard way. Measurements are not the be all end all!! You need common sense and an open mind......and above all a appreciation for music coupled with a decent set of ears!

So if you are tearing these caps out and the ESR is that low then why replace them at all? After all ESR is the final word isn't it?

[BEC]

"So if you are tearing these caps out and the ESR is that low then why
replace them at all? After all ESR is the final word isn't it?"

Two reasons Craig, one is that the average one has gone high enough in ESR that it needs replacing. Second reason is that the old oil filled cans will eventually leak oil all over your speaker cabinet. I have seen hundreds of them leaking and am convinced it is just a matter of time before all of them leak.

[NOSValves]

So are you saying just a few of them actually measure at this low ESR? Of course if a cap leaks oil it needs replacing I think that is not a very common thing though. I still measurements are not the be all end all. You surley do not want parts that measure bad but measurement do not equate to how something will ultimately sound. Plenty of audio products have been built ovcer the years with great test results that sound like dung...

[BEC]

So are you saying just a few of them actually measure at this low ESR? Of course if a cap leaks oil it needs replacing I think that is not a very common thing though. I still measurements are not the be all end all. You surley do not want parts that measure bad but measurement do not equate to how something will ultimately sound. Plenty of audio products have been built ovcer the years with great test results that sound like dung...

The number of leaking oil filled caps made in the 70s is large. It is masked on crossovers like the AA by dust in general. However, when you remove the caps, you often will see a wet spot under the cap.

On a rebuild or replacement crossover, I just want that to make the speaker sound like it did when new. And I would want to verify that the same way that Klipsch did, that is, by electronic testing of the crossover. In my opinion how I want the speaker to sound or how you want the speaker to sound is just not something to consider. A rebuild or replacement crossover should make the speaker sound like the manufacturer wanted it to sound when he used those crossovers and when those original crossovers were new.

Now, modification is a different story. If we want to address a change in that original performance, that is a mod. I think there are reasons that may be good to do, but then we need to call that a mod. It is not the original sound any more. Using a new high ESR cap is a mod. Must be since we know that PWK said he would not do that.

Bob Crites

[Deang]

http://www.audience-av.com/capacitors/a_testresults.html

Those numbers translate to less than .005 ohms for the PIO caps tested. Is this something we really need to get our pantyhose in a bunch over?

What about the non-linearity issue I posted about earlier. The guy makes a good case. I think if ESR is the only driving factor in this issue, there wouldn't be so many involved in exploring other explanations as to why people are hearing differences where none supposedly exist. To say that none exist is just simply an odd form of denial. I feel like I'm trapped in a bad Julian Hirsch dream.

Many years ago, I asked Bob Gassel of Klipsch why they used Mylars. His response was, "to prevent the speakers from becoming uduly forward."

[BEC]

Dean said: "Those numbers translate to less than .005 ohms for the PIO caps tested."

That number is pretty good. Someone sent me some Jensen PIOs to test years ago. Was that you? None that good for sure, but the main thing is that they varied all over the place in ESR. That to me would be enough to reject using them because it speaks to the lack of control they have over their manufacturing process or materials. Same thing for rejecting any cap that advertises 10 percent tolerance on cap values. 5 percent tolerance is just not that hard to do.

Bob Gassel? Haven't heard that name in a long time. Brings back old troubling memories.

Dean, all you need is a heritage speaker with a 1st order network. You can then make up a double pole, double throw switch to compare caps yourself while listening. Get someone else to operate the switch and you can make those cap decisions. That is how I got to the decision that I could hear ESR when it got to about 0.5 ohms. And, capacitance being exactly equal, ESR made the only audible difference.

[NOSValves]

And with what cap brands did you test this ESR theory with?

[BEC]

And with what cap brands did you test this ESR theory with?

Of course that would be old caps removed out of Klipsch crossovers to test the ESR theory. They are various names like Aerovox, Plastic Capacitor and others I don't remember now.

What is this? A tag team.