K400/k55v to borrow

[Deang]

Is the K260 the new mid horn they use in the KLipschorns now, I noticed the specs on the website spec it out as a 2" mid horn.

No, they still use the K-401. The K-260 was used in the vintage pro-stuff.

[Deang]

Having experienced at least a few horns I'd certainly not say that the K400 is the horn, but I am wondering why did P.W. use it? I know that he toyed around with components until he finally found the formular for a steady output of Khorns. Was his choice basically a financial one? I was surprised to find out that the K400 was a Klipsch product and not made by an outside supplier - didn't know that before watching the video taken inside the Klipsch museum.

Wolfram

He used it because he liked it. I like it too, you just can't do high SPL without getting a headache.

Consider how long that thing has been around and what was around when Klipsch developed it.

Collapsing verticals and controlled directivity. The emphasis is now on even power response and/or contant directivity.

http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf

[absolve2525]

Very interesting! I'm not normally playing them maddeningly loud, so perhaps that's why I don't find them offensive. The neighbor is an ***, so I'm limited when it comes to arena-loud levels of enjoyment.

[dubai2000]

Well, I do like to listen to music quite loudly - but without spl meter I cannot verify how loud that is. I certainly recall that at the time when the K400 retired, I found it sometimes rather harsh sounding. But that was before the JBL driver I am using now and before I began to swap caps in the crossover. I am pretty sure that those changes add quite a bit to my more positive reaction to the K400 now.

Yes, P.W.K. obviously liked the K400, but he seemed to have know most of the WE stuff and in early Khorns he used alternatives. The video suggests that he even thought of using a multicell horn. Any why did he decide to use a metal horn? Was that cheaper/easier to build?

Wolfram

[ZombieWoof]

why metal ? No injection plastic molding processes at the time that were cheap & reliable

and then no modern plastics either like there are today would be my guess

[Quiet_Hollow]

The K-400/401 is fine as long as you don't jack the volume. The throat overloads and it's capable of inflicting a great deal of pain. When someone tells me how great it sounds at 120dB I pretty much know they're hearing is shot

So the factory distortion numbers on file are wrong? I mean all those pro-sound guys that leaned heavily on their fiberglass industrials all these years would have had terrible sound at all their performances, right?

IME, with the right source material and the right amp, you can take a K400/401 in good repair outdoors and fire it clear across a 10 acre field at full power without a hint of nastiness. If the throat were distorting that badly, as you imply, the sound far out would be greatly affected, but that's not the case in practice.

Closer in, it'll take the listener's head clean off...but even today's "state-of-the-art" horns will do that.

I would go so far as to say any horn played stupid loud, up-close, is gonna hurt.

I don't think the 400 (and especially the 401) is given a fair shake for the most part. From what I've gathered, most people typically do not experience the device in its best light.

Those that do, recognize it as the good buy that it is. Those that don't, typically loathe it.

In a round about way I do agree with you Dean. To step outside the intended design envelope is not pretty. But we've got to consider that the envelope in question exceeds the requirement of the intended application and that most scenarios aren't ideal to explore its fringes.

My .02

[Deang]

Narrow, constricting throats increase throat distortion. Are you actually trying to dispute this? There is also a mismatch between the exit of the driver and the entrance into the throat. Finally, reflections off the mouth travel back down into the throat, pinging the phase plug/diaphragm. You turn it up and it gets dirty. It makes sense that you would have to be 10 acres away from that before it sounds tolerable. Still, I find myself agreeing with much of what you said as well!

"The fairly resonant decay signatures are typical of PA-style horns, and are caused by standing-waves reflecting from the sharp edge of the horn-mouth reflecting back into the horn and hitting the phase plug. The standing-waves are also responsible for the characteristic triple-peak seen in the impedance curves of most horns - which makes passive crossover design considerably more challenging for horns, thanks to the impedance variations."

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/MLS/MLS3.html

"You see that the value of mouth impedance will dictate the value of the throat impedance. As explained previously, there will usually be reflections at the mouth, and depending on the phase and magnitude of the reflected wave, it may increase or decrease the throat impedance. A horn with strong reflections will have large variations in throat impedance. Reflections also imply standing waves and resonance. To avoid this, it is important to terminate the horn correctly, so that reflections are minimized."

https://www.grc.com/acoustics/an-introduction-to-horn-theory.pdf

There is something that helps with this, but we won't talk about that.

[Daddy Dee]

does anyone have a link for K-260 info?

[Daan]

I liked the sound of the K400/55 combo for years but after hearing Dave's tractrix design [fastrac] with the same K55-v 's I was amazed about all the details that were there suddenly. Though a tractrix like that does sound "soft" at first, going back to the K400 after a week or three was a big dissappointment.... I sold them without any regrets.

Now every comination of driver/ horn sound DIFFERENT and what sounds right to YOU is RIGHT IMO.

Nico

[Daddy Dee]

Duder,

Wondering if you've had a chance to listen to the K-400 or K-401 with your K-55.

I think you had a good idea about checking with Klipsch to purchase a K-401 horn. at a price of $50 or so each, the cost of purchase plus shipping would be around the same as shipping a K-400 round trip.

Might also check with Bob Crites on a K-401.

[The Dude]

Dee, I never got around to it. However Bob holds tight to the K401s he has on stock. I have recently moved the Klipchorns to the garage(and garage sell section). I need to get my basement finished before I continue and big projects as I never will if I continue to have a audio setup down there. One of the other reason's I am selling them, is do to the route I am taking I don't want to have to close in the back's as one of the bass bins is from 53'. So I have some ideas on the table.

[Islander]

As someone mentioned, the K400 has been around for a long time. It may have been among the best in 1960 or 1970, but a lot has been learned since then, and the newer tractrix horns sound better than exponential horns like the K400/K401.

The K510 (a 1998 design), and its successor, the K402 (designed around 2000-2001) are modified tractrix horns, and their performance is years ahead of the older designs, as you would expect.

[Quiet_Hollow]

This same kind of talk runs rampant on classic automotive forums too. The only reason anyone would contemplate swapping out drivers, is because the residual value places the cabinet into the commodity price bracket.

"Who cares what it is, just throw it in there..."

Until it comes time to purchase. Then people switch gears to:

Why are you selling it? Is it stock? Is it pristine? What's the serial numbers? I don't want a basket case."

Point being that only a few stop to discuss the absolute merit of the modification, or maximizing what they've got, or what really put the design on the map to begin with. Heritage has been around for so long, because at a very fundamental acoustic level, those things have never, and will never change.

That, and not everyone is an engineer or rockstar fabricator. Against all odds, believe it or not, some people are perfectly plum-happy to buy something, pull it out of box, and use it as intended. There's a ton of "little" details that nay-sayers often gloss over that make these things compatible with daily use.

Ask a brand new P-39 owner if they'd be inclined to "upgrade" to a K-402.

Also...when one steps into the size / performance category of the Jubilee & K402, other horn-loaded manufacturers start to become awfully competitive. Just sayin', the particular combination is not simply the end-all be-all.

<rant over>

[Islander]

You have a point, but going from La Scala (original or II) to a JubScala is totally reversible, so it doesn't affect the collector's value of the speaker, and the sound improvement is really amazing. Also, you don't need to be an engineer, since the "recipe" was engineered at Klipsch, along with lab-tested settings for the EQ. It's a proven combination, with no guesswork required.

As for other high-performance horns, like those by Avantegarde or Magico, they're reputed to sound really good, but they sure don't compete when it comes to price. Those horn speakers are really expensive. In relation to them, the Jubilee and JubScala are the "affordable exotics".

You're right that a P-39 owner would be unlikely to want to alter his speakers. They already have a very high level of performance, and there's no knowledge base out here to draw upon to learn about upgrades or mods. Ten years from now, there may be alternate drivers and crossovers available, but then again, maybe not.

[mdross1]

Just picked up a K400 horn with K55V driver noticed right away that the bore of the horn was a tad smaller than the bore of the driver. Right away noticed how clear with no harshness compared to the Peavey horns we are presently using. It does have a small bore approx. 3/4" wonder how different the sound changes as the bore gets bigger. Will be looking for another one.

Edited July 28, 2014 by mdross1

[Arash]

I really don't get all the hate towards K400. With Crites crossovers in my setup, and now CT-125, the KHorns sound great. Midrange is clear, full, and intelligible. It doesn't sound honky. Getting that crossover right is a big deal.

no matter what compression driver or crossover you use. it's just sound physics. that exponetial horn has a HUGE lot of honkiness coloration. some say replacing it with a better horn will decrease the "IMPACT" and dynamics in the sounds, but IMO what they like is just coloration of a honky horn which will shove the bad sound into listeners ears! if one would like to hear that kine of sound, that's OK but that sound is not just hi-fidelity sound reproduction, maybe a low-fidelity but enjoyable sound.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Arash

[Arash]

You have a point, but going from La Scala (original or II) to a JubScala is totally reversible, so it doesn't affect the collector's value of the speaker, and the sound improvement is really amazing. Also, you don't need to be an engineer, since the "recipe" was engineered at Klipsch, along with lab-tested settings for the EQ. It's a proven combination, with no guesswork required.

As for other high-performance horns, like those by Avantegarde or Magico, they're reputed to sound really good, but they sure don't compete when it comes to price. Those horn speakers are really expensive. In relation to them, the Jubilee and JubScala are the "affordable exotics".

You're right that a P-39 owner would be unlikely to want to alter his speakers. They already have a very high level of performance, and there's no knowledge base out here to draw upon to learn about upgrades or mods. Ten years from now, there may be alternate drivers and crossovers available, but then again, maybe not.

I've heard lot's of that expensive horn speakers. comparing them to an upgraded Khorn I heard with BMS and Beyma parts and a Tractrix horn, I'm not saying 4-5K khorns were better but they hold up almost toe to toe. considering the price, I'd rather to have a good Khorn with hi-tach BMS midrange and constant directivity tweeter and I'll enjoy the sound and I still have 6-digits credit balance!

[Max2]

How about some big wood on top?

[The Dude]

How about some big wood on top?

You said big wood.