How much poer do I need for Klipschorns?

[ClaudeJ1]

Eighty watts per channel should be enough.

It's actually too much. I once designed my own peak level meter for speakers. My Khorns were loud on 2 Watt PEAKS, most being 1/8th watt or less. 10 Watt peaks were painful. PWK used to demonstrate "ear splitting levels" with a 10 Watt Brook tube amplifier in the mono days.

It's just hard to get good low power amps these days unless you get a chip amp. My little Sonic Impact was tested by a Klipsch Engineer and he said it was a great little 6W amplifier perfect for a Khorn.

That being said, when I was at Paul W. Klipsch's house, he was using a Crown D-60 and a BGW-100 on his Khorns. Those two were the lowest powered amps one could get in the 80's that had super low TIM distortion. Now pretty much all amp makers do that.

Edited December 19, 2013 by ClaudeJ1

[Axz Hout]

x

[ClaudeJ1]

I use a 300 Watt/channel SAE Mk 2500 amp on my Klipschorns. Sounds great with plenty of headroom. chris

This was the Klipsch answer to the power needed question -

I try to keep my levels in the 80-85 db range (JBL used to recommend 75). This keeps things loud enough and detailed enough. Based on your posted letter, I use about 1/100th of 1 watt to do this (10 milliwatts) or 20 db less, which is 1/4 as loud, which agrees with my own measurements of amplifier power going to my passive Xover. A 300 Watt amplifier is a 25 dbWatt amplifier, which means you can reach 125 db peaks, which are pretty obnoxious to my ears. I would say YES you have tons of headroom. That would translate about about 45 db headroom for me. The only thing I wish to point out is that Signal to Noise ratios in amplifiers are referenced to full output, so, all other things being equal, the guy with less powerful amplifiers will also have less noise.

I should point out that the 10 W/channel, $26 Lepai is what I use on my woofer section. It has enough headroom to handle the latest TRON movie dynamics. My beefy power goes to the Danley DTS-10's where it's needed.

Edited December 20, 2013 by ClaudeJ1

[tblake10]

I have a larger room (20x20) and prefer more power like garyrc. They max out at 100 watts and that is what I'm running now. I'd like to have a tube amp and looking for at least 60 watts per channel.

[ClaudeJ1]

Hi, I'm new to Klipschorns. They are highly efficient and not much power is required for high db, I get that. However, I'm putting together a 5.0 HT system and I'll also be using it just for plain old 2.0 stereo. I'm using the KHorns for the mains and La Scala's for the center and surrounds for the 5.0 system (for both music and Video surround sound). I'm looking at using the Emotiva UPA-700 which is rated at 80 watts per each of 7 channels. I'd bi-amp the mains using all 7 channels.

My question is: Is 80 watts per channel going to be enough to provide the head room required for both music AND movies? Do I really need more power like using 7 mono-blocks like the Emotiva XPA-100 which are rated at 250 watts?

Since the average power, when played LOUD, with Khorns, is about 1/4 watt, adding in a conservative 20 db headroom (100 times), you get 25 Watts, so 80 will give you about 25 db head room. The rest of you guys that recommend more are crazy! (in a good way, of course). I was a DB freak with my Khorns in my early 20's and even then I was only hitting 10 Watt peaks on most of my music.

I also want to remind you that signal to noise ratio is based on full output, so, good low power amps, technically, have an advantage over higher power ones, in that they have a higher signal to noise ratio.

100-300 Amps of modern times are great (Bryston 4B, etc.) but you will NEVER use it on a Khorn and it's money wasted. Save that kind of power for SUBWOOFERS.

Edited December 21, 2013 by ClaudeJ1

[tblake10]

80W is more than enough. KHorn and 3 La Scala? Sweet! You'll want a horn-loaded sub to make an all-horn-loaded HT system!

How are you going to biamp KHorns?

80 W seems like a good figure. I like the 100 W/channel I have on mine. I don't think you'd benefit from bi-amping, though, unless you want to insert equalization or time delays. My feeling is not to mess with it.

Noise can be an issue if the amplifiers are too powerful or have too much gain. Noise can come from preamp circuitry, especially if boosted by high amplifier or high electronic crossover gain. Level controls on the amplifier inputs can help control this.

LarryC has a good point though about the noise and gain if you go higher power. Right now I'm running a 100w mc2105 which is pretty quiet and it also has gain control which I have set at about half.

[Deang]

When I took over the Universal build from Al, I wanted to make some changes. One of the things I wanted to do was remove the biamp feature. Al wanted me to leave it so a person could always have the option to "upgrade" to the ESN series in incremental steps. I thought it sent the wrong message -- I don't like passive biamping the way it's normally done. I doubt any Heritage loudspeaker is drawing more than 10 wpc on a good day. I would allow five times the power for peaks (though for the most part have been compressed out of our music anyways). At any rate, the ALK Universal allows for biamping, but not because I think passive biamping sounds better or because I think people need more power.

Edited December 23, 2013 by DeanG

[CECAA850]

That's true. i've heard more than one complaint about hiss with Emotiva amps and very sensitive speakers like K-Horns.

I am going out on a limb but, I think most of the problems are with their Generation one amps.

Is the gain structure different or adjustable on the newer amps?

[ClaudeJ1]

Hi, I'm new to Klipschorns. They are highly efficient and not much power is required for high db, I get that. However, I'm putting together a 5.0 HT system and I'll also be using it just for plain old 2.0 stereo. I'm using the KHorns for the mains and La Scala's for the center and surrounds for the 5.0 system (for both music and Video surround sound). I'm looking at using the Emotiva UPA-700 which is rated at 80 watts per each of 7 channels. I'd bi-amp the mains using all 7 channels.

My question is: Is 80 watts per channel going to be enough to provide the head room required for both music AND movies? Do I really need more power like using 7 mono-blocks like the Emotiva XPA-100 which are rated at 250 watts?

RAFellows,

The new amp should be fine, but you can always upgrade to more power later. I have Klipsh TSCMs wich are Pro Klipschorns that are even more sensitive than K-Horns as they are 106dB/1 meter?/1 Watt and also louder as well, and I use 225 watts on my center and 200 watts on all other channels. The bigger amp will give you more headroom and help with authority on your Bass with your K-Horns and LaScalas for both music and movies.

Roger

Not true.

[ClaudeJ1]

I use a 300 Watt/channel SAE Mk 2500 amp on my Klipschorns. Sounds great with plenty of headroom. chris

This was the Klipsch answer to the power needed question -

20 Volt RMS.jpg

This 20W recommendation is the best and it's an old one. 80W/ch. would be 6 db more and not necessary. There has probably been more millions of dollars wasted on too much power for Khorns than any other speaker in the world over time. Been there, done that in my foolish youth.

Keep in mind that a K-33 woofer is a 100 W woofer. All voice coils start to show power compression at 10% of their rated power. So, for a Khorn, LaScala, or Cornwall, that's 10 watts before non-linear power compression sets in. At that point, you are at an ear splitting 107 db at 10 feet away, which is the same level as a RUSH concert with megawatts of power in a large venue. I'm just sayin' you power freaks are out of your frikkin' minds and will NOT be enjoying your tweeters into a ripe old age. You know I'm right.

[ClaudeJ1]

When I took over the Universal build from Al, I wanted to make some changes. One of the things I wanted to do was remove the biamp feature. Al wanted me to leave it so a person could always have the option to "upgrade" to the ES-5800, and then replace the whole network later as funds permitted. I thought it sent the wrong message -- I don't like passive biamping the way it's normally done. I doubt any Heritage loudspeaker is drawing more than 10 wpc on a good day. I would allow five times the power for peaks (though for the most part have been compressed out of our music anyways). At any rate, the ALK Universal allows for biamping, but not because I think passive biamping sounds better or because I think people need more power.

Right on, brother Dean! Tell it!!

[Chris A]

My question is: Is 80 watts per channel going to be enough to provide the head room required for both music AND movies? Do I really need more power like using 7 mono-blocks like the Emotiva XPA-100 which are rated at 250 watts?

Paul Klipsch had a Dope from Hope article on this subject - linked below. These figures are based on single-speaker output into a 3000 ft^3 room:

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=69980

110 dB in-room is high disco level...especially from a single loudspeaker.

Chris

Edited December 21, 2013 by Cask05

[garyrc]

I use a 300 Watt/channel SAE Mk 2500 amp on my Klipschorns. Sounds great with plenty of headroom. chris

This was the Klipsch answer to the power needed question -

20 Volt RMS.jpg

This 20W recommendation is the best and it's an old one. 80W/ch. would be 6 db more and not necessary. There has probably been more millions of dollars wasted on too much power for Khorns than any other speaker in the world over time. Been there, done that in my foolish youth.

Keep in mind that a K-33 woofer is a 100 W woofer. All voice coils start to show power compression at 10% of their rated power. So, for a Khorn, LaScala, or Cornwall, that's 10 watts before non-linear power compression sets in. At that point, you are at an ear splitting 107 db at 10 feet away, which is the same level as a RUSH concert with megawatts of power in a large venue. I'm just sayin' you power freaks are out of your frikkin' minds and will NOT be enjoying your tweeters into a ripe old age. You know I'm right.

I used to have a Yamaha power amp (supposedly 135 watts per channel) that had a peak level meter for each channel. Once in a while, with Khorns, it would read 25 to 50 watts through each of the two channels being used (once was at the end of a Mahler symphony).

Most often the noise (hum/hiss) I have heard through Khorns came from the preamp. My solid state power amps produce only a faint hiss -- no hum or other noise.

Paul Klipsch once said that to reproduce the "blood stirring" peaks produced by a symphony orchestra, you need "115 dB at your ears." This was in famous advertisement that depicted a Klipsch Wide Stage Stereo set-up with two Klipschorns and a La Scala center (another version used a Belle center). He depicted three "good" 20 watt power amps that each provided 1/3 of the power needed to provide 115 dB SPL. An assumption was that the power of the orchestra was spread evenly over the field covered by the three speakers, so a total the 60 watts would be in use. . This is in close agreement with the Klipsch chart posted by another member, which showed 63 watts providing 115 dB. PWK often recorded symphony orchestras, and probably took SPL measurements, knowing him, so that may be where he got the 115 dB figure. The movie people sometimes don't spread the SPL evenly across the front, but will provide a huge crash or boom from one side or the other. Usually, most of that sound will be fed to the subwoofer (if one is being used), but not always!

Perhaps it's because I most often listen to music that has big peaks (classical, and a little jazz), but not the all-out, steady assault of Rock, that I am enjoying my tweeters in my ripe old age!

[Axz Hout]

x

[ClaudeJ1]

It all boils down to how loud you want it in how large a room (or outdoors).

I have the front Klipschorns connected to Belles in the rear to fill a 3200 cu ft room. I also have a LaScala for front center on a separate amp.

I have listened many times with the meters touching the 300 watt mark. Listeners either stay and dance or leave. I also EQ 3 0r 4 dB at 40 hz.

I bought the speakers in 1974 - 1975 and have only blown 4 K33E woofers and 1 K77 tweeter. chris

Well, you certainly could not do that with Bose 901's and 4 Kilowatts of power. Rock on!

[twistedcrankcammer]

Hi, I'm new to Klipschorns. They are highly efficient and not much power is required for high db, I get that. However, I'm putting together a 5.0 HT system and I'll also be using it just for plain old 2.0 stereo. I'm using the KHorns for the mains and La Scala's for the center and surrounds for the 5.0 system (for both music and Video surround sound). I'm looking at using the Emotiva UPA-700 which is rated at 80 watts per each of 7 channels. I'd bi-amp the mains using all 7 channels.

My question is: Is 80 watts per channel going to be enough to provide the head room required for both music AND movies? Do I really need more power like using 7 mono-blocks like the Emotiva XPA-100 which are rated at 250 watts?

RAFellows,

The new amp should be fine, but you can always upgrade to more power later. I have Klipsh TSCMs wich are Pro Klipschorns that are even more sensitive than K-Horns as they are 106dB/1 meter?/1 Watt and also louder as well, and I use 225 watts on my center and 200 watts on all other channels. The bigger amp will give you more headroom and help with authority on your Bass with your K-Horns and LaScalas for both music and movies.

Roger

Not true.

Claud J-1 I can hit 126Db in the center of the room and have never blown a driver on a TSCM. As for "Not True" that is your opinion...

Roger

[Axz Hout]

x

 

[twistedcrankcammer]

Well, you certainly could not do that with Bose 901's and 4 Kilowatts of power. Rock on!

I have a friend with 2 Bose 901's in each corner (=8) using a Phase Linear 700. He doesn't use the Bose equalizer, they do crank the dB.

However Klipsch horn speakers are louder and clearer sounding!

I can hit 126Db in the center of the room

You need more power! TCSM maximum continous power = 250 watts chris

Chris,

That is why I am trying to change out my Nakamichi PA-7s one at a time and move up to the PA-7II and bump it to 225 watts per channel!!!

Roger

[Axz Hout]

x

[ClaudeJ1]

I use 225 watts on my center and 200 watts on all other channels. The bigger amp will give you more headroom and help with authority on your Bass with your K-Horns and LaScalas for both music and movies. Roger Not true. Claud J-1 I can hit 126Db in the center of the room and have never blown a driver on a TSCM. As for "Not True" that is your opinion... Roger

I wasn't questioning your potential SPL or headroom, just the "authority" part. For people who listen to non-damaging levels with horns, in more "typical" rooms. The extra power capability has nothing to do with the "authority" of the bass response, just the max. spl. as long as your are using solid state amplifiers with low source impedance, you will have plenty of authority at 2 watts average, maybe a bit less with tube amps.

I used to have as much power as you on my Khorns back in the 70's, but after designing and building my own peak power meters, I sold them off and went to Marantz 8B tubes. At 35 W per channel, they had plenty of "Authority." PWK himself approved them to my face. Obviously if you crank TSCM's in a huge room you will need that much power and headroom, but in a "normal" home environment, it's a total waste, which, I presume, is the type of room the original poster was asking about.

Besides, the original poster doesn't have TSCM's which have different drivers and specs. He was asking if his 80 w amps were enough for Khorns and LaScalas, which, even for large living rooms, is more than enough according to 95% of the respondents here, including data from original/official Klipsch documents.

So the short answer for him is YES. Don't need to waste any money on more power, geez.

That being said, I'm sure your TSCM setup kicks some royal butt regardless of other opinions or relevance.

Edited December 22, 2013 by ClaudeJ1