Deang Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Klipsch Type B2 built using Jupiter wax impregnated Flat Stack Foils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) I know it's a great mystery -- with all of these different crossovers, how do I figure out what to recommend for who? I must have people piling up, begging me for returns and exchanges, right? Okay, let's talk about this. I'm batting exactly .1000. In the over 10 years I've been doing this, I've had exactly zero people ask me for something to replace that which I recommended to them. Now, I have had a handful ask for an exchange, but in each case, it was because they ordered something different than what I recommended. First, I need to state that even though I'm a licensed building for some of Al's products, don't think for a minute that we are in total agreement about everything. On the contrary, there is plenty of friction, but it's the healthy kind, and it keeps things interesting. Al believes I send mixed signals by building the Klipsch networks. He believes they are "bad designs" and obsolete - and it irritates him a little that I continue to recommend them and build them. Now, I don't build all of them, I only build the ones I personally like, which amounts to exactly five (Type A, AA, B, B2 & E). I build them because I like the way they sound and have this crazy idea that PWK generally knew what he was doing. Now, Al also knows what he's doing, and also designs some things that sound really good -- but just like there are some Klipsch networks that I'm not too thrilled with, Al has some things that don't float my boat either. The great thing about doing your own thing is that you're free to do build what you like, and free to avoid that which you don't. As long as I have a good day job, I am afforded this luxury. When a person tells me that they like the sound of their loudspeaker, and want improvement without radically changing the sonic signature, it's pretty much a no-brainer -- they're getting a Klipsch network built with the parts I believe are best for that particular build. Al's networks don't sound like Klipsch networks. If I sell a pair of ALKs or Super AAs to someone who just got done telling me they like the Klipsch house sound, I'm taking a serious risk. I know if I build the one thing, they'll be happy. If I build the other ... well ... I have no idea now do I? Believe it or not, but not everyone who hears a pair of ALKs or Super AAs believe they sound better than what they had. Then there are the calls and emails of a different sort. These are from the people who really don't like what they're hearing, and are praying, hoping -- that I have something in the arsenal that will save them from having to sell their loudspeakers. These people are miserable with the sound they have, and you can hear it in the tone of their voice. They have no interest in the "Klipsch house sound" -- and they want to get as far away from it as possible. So, if you were me -- what would you recommend? Then we have the in-between people. They are of the tortured variety, and they greatly enjoy making me suffer with them. They are on the fence with what they're hearing, and so can't make up their mind. We eventually get it figured out, but they are never completely comfortable with their decision -- until they install the networks! If I'm told that different drivers and horns will be involved, I move them towards the ALK. At this point, the ability to attenuate the midrange becomes more than just a nifty little feature, it becomes a requirement. An exception to this would be the person who is staying with the stock midrange drivers in conjunction with Dave's Fastrac LaScala horns. Dave has convinced me that there is no appreciable gain with this horn, and if one stays with the stock drivers, then they can run a Jensen or Jupiter loaded stock networks without issue. Lastly, If they tell me they have a larger room, sit off the loudspeakers some, and/or listen relatively loud, these folks get moved towards the ALKs as well, since the 2nd order filter section between the squawker and tweeter helps quite a bit here. A lot is made of the ability to attenuate, but how important is this feature really to those staying with the stock drivers? We should all be in general agreement that there are only a couple of settings that will keep the loudspeaker honest. The response doesn't have to be flat per se', but we don't want it sagging either. What tends to happen is that people find the setting they like, and then leave it. It just so happens that there are only a couple of settings that people try before settling on the one they like, and it's always within a couple of dB of the stock setting, usually a couple of dB down. I can accomplish the same thing with a stock network using several different methods, and since the network isn't swamped down to 8 ohms, requiring the larger primary capacitor value -- I can use cool and great sounding stuff like the Jensens and the Jupiters (their use being completely cost prohibitive for the ALKs). So how did Budman end up with ALKs, while Schu ended up with the B2? Russ kept saying stuff like "huh?", "what?", "talk louder", etc. It didn't take me long to figure out that he liked to jam. So, he fell into the larger room/likes to listen loud category. Michael told me he had no plans on changing horns or drivers, pretty much liked what he was hearing, and wasn't even sure if he would get any benefit from from upgrading the crossovers. He did mention that he thought he could benefit from some attenuation. He is currently using the Type B. Based on what he told me about his system and his listening habits, I decided to move him to the B2, which changes the woofer and tweeter sections to 2nd order. The circuit change alone will provide a cleaner and more coherent sound. I added a coil in series with the squawker, which will add a bit of resistance and roll it off a little faster. This, in combination with the caps, will provide all the attenuation he needs. Michael might like the ALK better, or not -- I have no way of knowing either way with absolute certainty. Doing this isn't easy -- you do the best you can. Edited January 20, 2014 by DeanG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toolz Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Building a custom network to the taste of the individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Yes. Any other approach simply short changes the customer. Since we all hear differently and have different tastes, what is the point in handing everyone the same cookie jar? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Thanks for all the great info and responses. Man, choosing Networks for Khorns must be like picking a color for your midlife crisis sports car, not that I have been there, but right now I feel like it. Fixing up my old LaScalas was easy, just update the Caps in the AL-3 networks and pop in Bobs tweeters. The timbre issue may never be resolved between the Khorn and the LaScala, but I would like to have the outputs on the mids close. Its not a big deal, because now listening to the K's with two channel listening I am more concerned about getting the very best out of them, than worrying about making them sound the same. Now, do I keep it old school with an new A network from Bob, go with Bob's 4500HZ type A network with his tweeters or do I go with a new school adjustable attenuating crossover? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 i'd get on the crossover roadshow from Dean if thats still going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axz Hout Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Why not update your AK-2 to AK-3? https://community.klipsch.com/uploads/monthly_10_2013/post-32366-1381957014337.jpg https://community.klipsch.com/uploads/monthly_10_2013/post-32366-138195701441.jpg Its probably the direction Im going to go. Its only that for a few dollars more I can look at something that has some adjustability. I am concerned that one of the "adjustable" networks might take me too far off the path of that original, creamy, lively mid that I am so accustomed to. There is obviously no clear winner here, but you know how the woulda, shoulda, buyers remorse goes. Edited January 21, 2014 by Max2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) I'd hate to know how many hands my xovers have gone thru before getting to my home Edited January 21, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) The Roadshow Crossovers are just for test driving, no one keeps them. It's just an opportunity to hear something different without spending a lot of money. I built the ones I sent out with very inexpensive parts - the Standard Build uses "better" capacitors and coils. Have your rewired yet? Regardless of what crossover you end up with, you are going to have to replace that nasty monster cabling. That old green wire and the notoriously bad soldering is probably costing you almost 3dB in high frequency output. If you think that there are too many crossovers to choose from now, just wait - it's about to get worse. Sorry. Edited January 22, 2014 by DeanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I have heard many when I used to own stock La Scala's (AL-2's, AL-3's, Type A), and went with Al's ALK Universals. I'll admit I like to listen loud (90 - 100 db), but these just sounded head and shoulders better than the others mentioned. I am also using them on my modified Khorns (see sig), and couldn't be happier. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 If you think that there are too many crossovers to choose from now, just wait - it's about to get worse. Sorry. Are you buildign JBL crossovers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I have heard many when I used to own stock La Scala's (AL-2's, AL-3's, Type A), and went with Al's ALK Universals. I'll admit I like to listen loud (90 - 100 db), but these just sounded head and shoulders better than the others mentioned. I am also using them on my modified Khorns (see sig), and couldn't be happier. Mike Mike, I'm with you on this, when I had AL's Universals with the stock componets and the upgraded ones these networks sound by far best to me!!! Now I have a copy of AL's A type with NorthCreek aircore inductors 8awg all the way round, upgraded caps, upgraded autoformers, upgraded resistors!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 If you think that there are too many crossovers to choose from now, just wait - it's about to get worse. Sorry. Are you building JBL crossovers? You might be surprised to learn that the concept and implementation probably predates JBL's use. Others have used it too, for example, it was used in the Gryphon Atlantis and Vandersteen 5A. It's easy to see why it might not be popular with the average user -- who probably doesn't want to sit around worrying about the batteries in their crossovers. Right now, it's a Type A, but I'm thinking about stretching it into a fully modified Type AA. I'm still waiting on the resistors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I'd hate to know how many hands my xovers have gone thru before getting to my home No one keeps the Roadshow crossovers, they are just for test drive purposes -- a way to experience something new and different without spending a lot of money. I just found the thread with my first Roadshow, and it was with this same design -- the year I started building and selling them. It seems hard to believe that it was 8 years ago. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/61920-i-want-to-do-a-network-roadshow-anyone-interested/?hl=super Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Crites builds the best crossovers to date that iv come across, in 40 years. Used to build my own, compared mine to Crites one time and found his Caps were of a better quality. For the money and the time, ill just stick with Crites, perfect out of the box is a sweet deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.