cheap easy tricks for calming mids in k-horns etc

[Chris A]

Heres how they sit for now. spaced about 9' apart from center of speakers. yes the def techs are too close to them, they were there first as part of the "theater" set up, i lay them down when i listen to the k-horns. a new tv is in the works & im not sure where everything will go for now. always wanted k-horns & a local deal came up i couldnt pass up so they are where they are for now. a new house may be in the near future too so things will have to be stuffed for now.

Try these suggestions--all together at once: move the side wall reflectors away from the left and right speaker by at least 3 feet further, also the two speakers in the middle between the Khorns - move them out of the center. Place a fair amount of absorptive material on top of each Khorn, fully covering their tops. Move everything else away from the front of the speakers that you can - maintaining at least 3 feet of distance from each Khorn.

When you sit on centerline between the speakers you should hear much smoother midrange and better tonal balance in addition to much better imaging.

If you are still experiencing harshness in a wide mix of your best recordings (i.e., using more than 2 different type of recording genres) , then try a bit more absorption on the side walls and over the center equipment rack,

Then try trial crossover upgrades: recommend try-before-buy since I don't believe that you've got real midrange issues. I'd also recommend swapping out your amplifier with something different - try tubes if you haven't tried it.

Chris

Edited February 11, 2014 by Cask05

[001]

Heres how they sit for now. spaced about 9' apart from center of speakers. yes the def techs are too close to them, they were there first as part of the "theater" set up, i lay them down when i listen to the k-horns. a new tv is in the works & im not sure where everything will go for now. always wanted k-horns & a local deal came up i couldnt pass up so they are where they are for now. a new house may be in the near future too so things will have to be stuffed for now.

Try these suggestions--all together at once: move the side wall reflector on the right wall away from the left and right speaker by at least 3 feet further, also the two speakers in the middle between the Khorns - move them out of the center. Place a fair amount of absorptive material on top of each Khorn, fully covering their tops. Move everything else away from the front of the speakers that you can - maintaining at least 3 feet of distance from each Khorn.

When you sit on centerline between the speakers you should hear much smoother midrange and better tonal balance in addition to much better imaging.

If you are still experiencing harshness in a wide mix of your best recordings (i.e., using more than 2 different type of recording genres) , then try a bit more absorption on the side walls and over the center equipment rack,

Then try trial crossover upgrades: recommend try-before-buy since I don't believe that you've got real midrange issues. I'd also recommend swapping out your amplifier with something different - try tubes if you haven't tried it.

Chris

the 2 speakers in the center get layed down flat on the ground for critical listening, i have yet to try absorbing material on the walls, center stand or speakers. will mess with that down the road. also i may move the left speaker to the right side long wall & see what happens. sorry but trying tubes is easier said than done, no clue where to start with that type of gear yet & after buying these i dont have the funds to spare on tubes.

Edited February 11, 2014 by klipschfancf4

[001]

max: yes they are a little close & my ceiling im sure is way too low at 8'. but i have senn k's even closer together on some pics on here. i may try moving the left one to the right side long wall & maybe room treatments etc. & thanks, they are rather gorgeous in the oiled walnut finish, sometimes i just stare at them not even playing music!!

larry: they are 1995 speakers so i think they are the plastic or fiberglass horns, they dont feel like metal. only reason im considering dampening them is from what ive read on this forum & a couple of the above posts. sounds good in theory... only had them a week or 2 so i plan to do some more listening & switching of amps etc, just got them properly seealed in the corners & waiting for some better speaker wire than the 16awg zip cord im using now. i live in eastern iowa. anyone near by wanna come hear them, or have a pair i could compare them to???

thanks again for all the replies

[garyrc]

i may look into the quietcoat or some other type of dampening for the outside horn body.

heres how they sit for now. spaced about 9' apart from center of speakers.

Are your MR horns metal or plastic? If plastic, do you have some reason to think damping them will help? Let me say I'm doubtful. In any case, a pair of the plastic K-401's used to cost a mere $50. I don't detect ringing or harshness in mine.

Easy for me to say -- I have the expensive AK-4 Xovers, which took care of the previous unevenness and poor blending I had. I don't think I have a problem now.

I, like Larry, have both the K-401 midrange horns and the AK-4 Xovers, and don't hear harshness on most recordings.

The relatively few recordings that sound harsh to me are CDs or old movie soundtracks, while it is hard for me to find a harsh SACD, DVD-A, or Blu-ray, so I'm suspicious that the K-horns are simply more revealing of the nature of crappy recordings than some of the other speakers I have. Also, back in my Lp record and reel to reel tape days, I very rarely heard harshness from some Khorns with AA x-overs.

It's tricky. I heard a CD that sounded a bit harsh on another sound system in our house that is quite forgiving of harshness, so I expected it to be even harsher on the K-horns. It wasn't. It sounded great, and much more detailed on the K-horns.

As to SPL, that's tricky, too. PWK used to say you need 115 dB brief peaks at your ears. On ordinary CDs (and with some other media) I've had peaks that high, and they were fine. OTOH, the 105 dB limit at reference level (with 115 dB for a subwoofer) sounds fine with movies, and plenty loud. Most of the time, big orchestral climaxes are read with a Rat-Shack meter, C, Fast at about 105 to 110 dB at my house. I rarely listen to rock or metal.

It's true that a somewhat harsh impression can be counteracted by turning up the bass to balance it. We have Audyssey, which smoothes out the frequency response somewhat, and the AK-4 Xover removes two bass pealks; our pre-amp has a tone control that allows a 6 dB boost in the already smoothed bass, without turning off Audyssey (unlike sliders). That is often enough to reduce the harshness of the old movie soundtracks I was writing about. When it's not, I turn up the subwoofer I use for movies, and that sometimes does the trick.

Be sure to try what Cask recommends in his post. I have the side wall absorption he talks about, as well as some diffusors in other areas.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Garyrc

[WMcD]

You should look at the Vacuum Tube Valley article I posted.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/46291-article-on-the-k-horn-and-interview/?hl=%2Bvacuum+%2Btube+%2Bvalley#entry886967

Rats, that doesn't show up as a link. But you can search for Vacuum Tube Valley on the forum or paste the link into your search engine of choice.

It is a great source of information and please take a look at the notch filter description.

As you'll see in the thread, there is a healthy debate over whether a glitch exists in some or all midrange drivers. But the cost of the two components is very reasonable and gets best bang for the buck recommendation.

WMcD

[WMcD]

I have to take that back. The link does work.

To comment further. I don't put much stock in using a 12 dB per octave roll off filer if it is designed to start at 6000 Hz to address this issue. It is not going to attenuate the artifact at 9000 Hz very much. But the notch filter will.

Smile,

WMcD

[LarryC]

max: yes they are a little close & my ceiling im sure is way too low at 8'. but i have senn k's even closer together on some pics on here. i may try moving the left one to the right side long wall & maybe room treatments etc. & thanks, they are rather gorgeous in the oiled walnut finish, sometimes i just stare at them not even playing music!! larry: they are 1995 speakers so i think they are the plastic or fiberglass horns, they dont feel like metal. only reason im considering dampening them is from what ive read on this forum & a couple of the above posts. sounds good in theory... only had them a week or 2 so i plan to do some more listening & switching of amps etc, just got them properly seealed in the corners & waiting for some better speaker wire than the 16awg zip cord im using now.

Well, this sounds a little tough to solve. I'm pretty sure the K-400 metal horn was standard in 1995, but perhaps not. Or someone might have replaced them. It's a very easy replacement.

I also was thinking tubes, but it would have to be an integrated Scott or Fisher to be even remotely feasible in your case. That might be a good outcome. It'd be great if you could have someone over or go pay a visit. I'm Mid-Atlantic as you can see.

My speakers are on the short, 11' wall, so yours may also be 8 feet apart (like mine). The disadvantage is the "sweet spot" is way too close to the speakers. 8' is a very standard height in these parts, and people around here make do with that limit. But everything blends reasonably well, though they didn't blend so well before I did some things including the AK-4. I'm not convinced, btw, that you need to consider that step.

One nearby forum member, Garymd, has a replacement horn made by Gothover. It has a very large sound field and makes his recordings (all LPs) sound great. Please note he has tubes -- a new NBS preamp and the increasingly legendary VRD mono blocs, both by Craig NOSvalves. Great combination. Also a very first-class TT/arm/cart (like mine).

SOOO -- what are your sound sources, and how do they compare with each other relative to your problem?

Edited February 11, 2014 by LarryC

[jason str]

My horns i coated are the 401's.

[001]

larry: how can i identify the horns, are the metal ones magnetic to test or are they a diecast type. i can almost guarantee they weren't replaced. what speakers are the 401's for/from, i see just horns on ebay quite often.

sound sources are mainly an adcom gcd600 cd player, also used a onkyo dvd player with sacd & dvd audio capability. although i dont have any sacd/dvda yet. the adcom cd seems to sound better. this is all on an adcom gtp500 premap. also have an older onkyo integra turntable i will try for a comparison, have a few of the same cds & LP'S to compare A-B style.

i will do some playing around & see what i can localize. also plan to add some absortion things to the room, which there are none of right now, its very echoey down there. thanks again!

[Deang]

I have to take that back. The link does work.

To comment further. I don't put much stock in using a 12 dB per octave roll off filer if it is designed to start at 6000 Hz to address this issue. It is not going to attenuate the artifact at 9000 Hz very much. But the notch filter will.

Smile,

WMcD

The K-401, which you have -- has "ribs" that go around the horn every few inches or so.

Yes, the P-trap stops "the glitch" dead in its tracks. However, that P-trap is for the K-55-V, not the K-55-M, which is what the OP has. The P-trap will be of no use, because the dreaded glitch actually moves up in the frequency response. At any rate, Al has shown many times that the Universal supplies an adequate amount of rejection. Bob C. insists that the issue is grossly overstated and says he actually has trouble finding drivers that even show the problem.

The glitch or bounce back issue isn't the culprit here, but as John Warren demonstrated many years ago, it's 'throat over-modulation distortion". It astonishes me that some still try to dispute this.

Those with AK series of networks have the composite K-401, which does not ring. Actually, the K-400 doesn't ring either if securely attached to the motorboard.

I have many emails which read like the one below:

"They have never sounded like this. The harshness of the squawkers is gone (gone gone gone) ..."

I have years of feedback that contribute to the formation of my opinions. Al once told me that I'm just "one guy in one room", but I have several hundred emails that say otherwise - and these opinions, which all basically say the same thing, form a trustworthy consensus.

The perceived improvement and the reduction in harshness was not accomplished with room treatments, throw rugs, moving things from between the loudspeakers, tube amps, etc., etc. I agree that doing these things will improve the sound, but they will not solve this particular problem.

Does anyone participating in this thread listen to rock music at 110-115dB with high powered solid state?

Edited February 11, 2014 by DeanG

[LarryC]

I have to do this from memory -- the metal feels like metal plain and simple, and it has a metallic "tap" when you tap it with your fingernail. The plastic feels some where between metal and hard plastic as best I remember, does not have a metallic "tap." Most striking, the plastic horn has all sorts of ridges built into the upper and lower surfaces, probably to decrease resonances, whereas the K-400 simply has the exponentially expanding surfaces of that design.

The K-401's are specifically Klipsch, that fit in K-horns in place of the K-400. I believe those molded ridges include the PWK logo.

Well, see if you can hear a single critical issue across your various sources.

[001]

the mid has the ribs all around it for sure & a k55-m driver. so dean, is this "glitch" just something i have to deal with with the current set up? could i switch to a k55-v driver? i see them for sale from time to time. & what exactly is a p trap? & what was it that fixed the guy in your e-mails problem?

im sure i will be able to improve them somehow, just wishfull thinking there would be a quick fix. usually never is.

also, just listened to some nora jones on youtube, will have to be getting some of her stuff & maybe lowering the Db's a bit!

Edited February 11, 2014 by klipschfancf4

[LarryC]

Oops, a jpeg won't copy here on my MacBook, unlike my Dell PC/Windows.

Google K-401

Edited February 11, 2014 by LarryC

[Guest David H]

I love Norah Jones, but she sounds good on everything. Not a great test.

Dave

[dtel]

i will do some playing around & see what i can localize. also plan to add some absortion things to the room, which there are none of right now, its very echoey down there. thanks again!

Echoey is a problem, could be your biggest problem, try to fix that and go from there. Try it where the top half of the speakers sounds bounce off the side walls.

[Deang]

The "P-trap" is the filter tweak that Gil was referring to, it was invented by Max Potter, and designed to deal with the 9kHz "glitch". It's a resonance, which presents as a peak that bounces into the tweeter's response. It is often blamed for the harshness people complain about. However, not all drivers exhibit the problem to the extent that others do. About a decade ago, John Warren isolated the harshness issue to the narrow throat of the horn. There is also a mismatch in size between the exit of the driver and the entrance of the throat, as well as an issue related to reflections off the mouth of the horn where sound travels rearwards and pings off the diaphragm, causing peaks in impedance, which translates into some aberrations in the amplitude response. Many here eventually leave that horn behind, but I always advocate doing the crossovers first. My argument for this is simple: if you change the horn, stay with any of the stock crossovers, and jack the volume to 11 -- it sounds plain horrible. However, starting with a good set of crossovers immediately nets better sound, even up to peaks of 105 -110dB. I cut my teeth on Zeppelin, Sabbath, Metallica, System of a Down, Mudvayne, etc., so I know what you're dealing with -- and as a former Klipschorn owner, I know what I'm talking about.

The email was from a customer who just got done installing a set of my ALK Universal crossovers. The customer is always right, right?

Your issue is being caused by the loud levels you enjoy, and you're going to have to spend money to fix it. Your other choice is to go in the other direction, which is what I did. I simplified my crossovers, went down to 20 wpc, and started listening late at night when it was quiet. It saved my hearing and sounded better too.

Edited February 11, 2014 by DeanG

[seti]

Trey Cannon asked PWK about this horn ringing for ALK and as a result got tossed out of the house for a brief time. When you screw down a bell does it ring?

To echo what others are saying it could be solid state amps or it could be the room overloading.

[LarryC]

To echo what others are saying it could be solid state amps or it could be the room overloading.

Solid state electronics is one of my candidates for the source of the problem. But I'd much rather hear it for myself to verify, and fancF4 should listen to tubes at some point before going that route.

What about one of the drivers or one of the speakers being out of phase? Those could cause all kinds of issues.

[Deang]

Yes, the driver distortion levels are much higher too, and this is also reduced by incorporating a steeper slope into that filter section. Yes, the room is probably overloading as well, but in my experience, it doesn't cause "earbleed". I believe the ears can actually "overload too, but the only two cures for that are lower volume levels or cotton.

[Deang]

What's the problem with solid state? I'm using a Luxman unit that sounds better than several tube amps I've used/heard.

So, if he buys a tube amp, moves some things around, hangs some poofy things on the walls, covers the top of his Klipschorns, etc., this problem will go away? I hope he tries all of these things - I'm curious to see how it works out.