Cut-Throat Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I'm going to surprise a few people here. I fully understand and use quality speaker cables however bi-wiring has not shown any benefit to me. It's not as dtel describes it's just two runs from the amp with the speaker strap removed, both drivers get the same signal just like they would with the strap in place. You basically double your cable cost for no improvement. A bigger change would be buying better cable than double the length of lessor quality cable. How can you tell what is "Better Cable". If I buy 100% OFC Cable, is there anything "Better"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I'm going to surprise a few people here. I fully understand and use quality speaker cables however bi-wiring has not shown any benefit to me. It's not as dtel describes it's just two runs from the amp with the speaker strap removed, both drivers get the same signal just like they would with the strap in place. You basically double your cable cost for no improvement. A bigger change would be buying better cable than double the length of lessor quality cable. How can you tell what is "Better Cable". If I buy 100% OFC Cable, is there anything "Better"? This is what iv been using for the 8+ years. pretty dam reasonable also. http://www.knukonceptz.com/mobile-audio/speaker-wire/kord-speaker-wire/sp/kord-ultra-flex-10-gauge-speaker-wire/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I'm going to surprise a few people here. I fully understand and use quality speaker cables however bi-wiring has not shown any benefit to me. It's not as dtel describes it's just two runs from the amp with the speaker strap removed, both drivers get the same signal just like they would with the strap in place. You basically double your cable cost for no improvement. A bigger change would be buying better cable than double the length of lessor quality cable. How can you tell what is "Better Cable". If I buy 100% OFC Cable, is there anything "Better"? By listening evaluations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 My understanding is that with bi-wiring it seems to have to do with the skin effect of different cable configurations. You would not necessarily use the same type of cable for both runs. Personally, I might never know myself because I really don't care to spend the time on this when I have so many other things I can do that are likely to have more of an effect. Who knows... maybe someday if I'm bored Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 My understanding is that with bi-wiring it seems to have to do with the skin effect of different cable configurations. From what I understand, skin effect isn't of much importance within the audio bandwidth. The effect is more prone in higher frequencies, such as Megahertz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydro_pyro Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 You guys keep saying bi-wiring (and even bi-amping) is BS, but you're overlooking some electrical theory. Perhaps it's not enough to make a real-world difference, but it's not entirely BS. You're assuming there is NO impedance losses across the speaker wires. If you crank up your speakers and put an AC voltmeter between the red wire at the amp and the red wire at the speaker, I'll bet there's probably enough loss to measure. Even if you're bi-wiring the highs and lows from the same power amp channel, the high side isn't seeing the losses across the speaker cable that the lows do. It's small, perhaps insignificantly small, but it's still there. Bi-amping, as already mentioned, eliminates any low-side reactive/inductive back-EMF ripples from the high side, in addition to the bi-wiring benefits I already mentioned. Think of two outlets in a room... You plug in a fan and a microwave... You turn on the microwave and you hear the fan slow down from voltage sag, a direct result of resistive losses in the home wiring. Now plug the fan into another room circuit with an extension cord. No more RPM change with the microwave. Now tell me how bi-wiring makes no difference. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydro_pyro Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I realize that, to an extent, the low-pass crossover and woofer do not actually impede or reduce the amplitude of the frequencies above the cutoff.. If bi-amping is not useful, then why have pro sound PA systems used bi-amping for decades? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 PA systems have been active for decades, there is a difference. Bi-amping while still relying on passive networks seems kind of silly, but I've been known to throw a tube amp on the horns and a bigger tube amp or ss for the woofs. But that's just weird Klipsch inspired behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Think of two outlets in a room... You plug in a fan and a microwave... You turn on the microwave and you hear the fan slow down from voltage sag, a direct result of resistive losses in the home wiring. Now plug the fan into another room circuit with an extension cord. No more RPM change with the microwave. Now tell me how bi-wiring makes no difference. LOL. So you are saying that if you bi-wire the fan and the microwave and plug them into one receptacle there will be no voltage sag? Of course there will. A different room circuit may be on the other leg of the 240 VAC. That would correspond to "fool's bi-amping", not simple bi-wiring. If bi-amping is not useful, then why have pro sound PA systems used bi-amping for decades? See answer above. Bi-amping is not bi-wiring. Bi-wiring connects two (2) pairs of wires to one (1) amp channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick J B Posted September 16, 2014 Author Share Posted September 16, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Bi-wiring delivers the same signal to the Hi and Lo drivers. A lot of the signal that the driver does not need is dissapated as heat in the passive xo. I have tried Bi-wiring and passive Bi-amping and the results were nil, nada, poof and pat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted September 16, 2014 Moderators Share Posted September 16, 2014 You guys keep saying bi-wiring (and even bi-amping) is BS, but you're overlooking some electrical theory. No, Bi-amping is doing something, a whole different amp, not just another set of wires from the same exact amp and connection, way more than just electrical theory's. Question............I'm trying to understand this looking at the drawing, isn't that the same as running how ever many different combinations of wires you want to the same taps ? The load and source will see the same thing except for how the wire performs would be the only difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 You guys keep saying bi-wiring (and even bi-amping) is BS, but you're overlooking some electrical theory. No, Bi-amping is doing something, a whole different amp, not just another set of wires from the same exact amp and connection, way more than just electrical theory's. Question............I'm trying to understand this looking at the drawing, isn't that the same as running how ever many different combinations of wires you want to the same taps ? The load and source will see the same thing except for how the wire performs would be the only difference. Yep! That why it's an insane thought. Im livin proof, Bi-Amping is the ONLY way to go, just ask my neighbor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 A lot of the signal that the driver does not need is dissapated as heat in the passive xo. Huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 The load and source will see the same thing except for how the wire performs would be the only difference. That is correct. You're just adding wire, that's all. The jumpers are better -- I used to toss the gold plated junk straps and make my own using good wire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Im livin proof, Bi-Amping is the ONLY way to go, just ask my neighbor A loudspeaker has a maximum output. With Heritage, it's about 125dB. I can do that with one amplifier and still achieve the 5x headroom requirement. No one talks about power compression anymore. While you're in the process of pissing off your neighbor, you're losing half of your amplifier power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Power compression may be an issue in a big venue, but seriously, if it is an issue in a domestic listening room you may want to consider turning the volume down before your ears get ripped off your head. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) No one talks about power compression anymore. In the quest for 'cheap' drivers, it does seem to be forgotten. I believe that JBL has some of the best engineering out there today in figuring out how to cool the voice coils. Another amazing driver with low power compression that I have is the Acoustic Elegance TD15M (actually spec close to the post-1985 K-33), which uses shorting rings. These drivers have a more complex ring structure for an additional amount called their "Apollo" motor upgrade, which they describe as using "additional dual aluminum faraday rings that sit on the 'outside' of the voice coil working in conjunction with the large copper ring inside the voice coil." I'm sure you already have read this; however, for those that may be interested in understanding how high-temperature and thermal compression can impact speaker output. http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pwr-vs-eff.htm Edited September 16, 2014 by Fjd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Im livin proof, Bi-Amping is the ONLY way to go, just ask my neighbor A loudspeaker has a maximum output. With Heritage, it's about 125dB. I can do that with one amplifier and still achieve the 5x headroom requirement. No one talks about power compression anymore. While you're in the process of pissing off your neighbor, you're losing half of your amplifier power. Power compression may be an issue in a big venue, but seriously, if it is an issue in a domestic listening room you may want to consider turning the volume down before your ears get ripped off your head. That may have been Dean's point, and if not, since minermark does not have the typical 'domestic listening room' there may be the opportunity to piss-off people in the next town too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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