How loud do you listen?

[Paducah Home Theater]

Regardless of hearing loss, to me its all about the dialog.  I think voices ought to sound realistic, and that includes the level.  If I'm sitting 10 feet away and somebody talks at reference level, they'd be screaming at me.  I can hear them just fine and it seems fairly normal at -25 db.  THX Reference was meant for a large theater that may be full of people.  I don't believe it is necessary in a perfectly quiet small living room.  

 

More important than toning down the loudness of voices is making sure whispers can be heard.  Klipsch does a good job of this compared to other stuff I've heard.  When somebody whispers or mumbles, I want to be able to understand it, and I also want it to sound like a whisper, which by definition is quiet.  

 

Also, home theater is a social activity.  It is awkward when you can't have a conversation with your guests.  It is important to me to be able to hear the full frequency spectrum and have good dynamics, yet not be so loud that you can never talk.  

 

So, I like having a good balance.  -25 and sometimes -20 does this for me.  As long as you have good overhead capacity I think this is plenty loud enough. Louder is more encapsulating, but as with the concert volume, you'll just get used to it after awhile. I think you can get away with less as long as dynamics is good. If I listen to concert blu rays at -25 vs. -10 I don't enjoy them any more at the louder volumes, actually less because my tinnitus kicks in and I can't hear well for a long time.

Edited December 29, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[AaronH]

I agree -25 is perfect for most applications and movies

[garyrc]

. If I'm sitting 10 feet away and somebody talks at reference level, they'd be screaming at me. I can hear them just fine and it seems fairly normal at -25 db. THX Reference was meant for a large theater that may be full of people. I don't believe it is necessary in a perfectly quiet small living room.

 

• Reference level is supposed to be Reference level but, man, your Reference level must be very different than mine, which isn't supposed to happen, regardless of room size.  So, something is wrong, somewhere.
• Sitting 12 feet away, at 5 dB below reference level, the dialog in our HT sounds very natural and natural in level (dB in the high '70s), not at all like screaming.  The big sound effects and musical peaks sometimes reach 105 dB (115 dB for the sub), C wt, Fast, just as they are supposed to.  Whispering sounds like whispering.  Orchestral music on the soundtracks sounds like the level that most people I know play their orchestral CDs.
• It is not that Reference level is necessary in a quiet living room, it is just that it produces the levels the filmmakers wanted, and, IMO, sounds better than much lower levels, musically and dramatically (although I cheat and set the Main Volume at about 5 dB below Reference with many films).

Edited December 29, 2014 by Garyrc

[Paducah Home Theater]

. If I'm sitting 10 feet away and somebody talks at reference level, they'd be screaming at me. I can hear them just fine and it seems fairly normal at -25 db. THX Reference was meant for a large theater that may be full of people. I don't believe it is necessary in a perfectly quiet small living room.

• Reference level is supposed to be Reference level but, man, your Reference level must be very different than mine, which isn't supposed to happen, regardless of room size.  So, something is wrong, somewhere.  
• Sitting 12 feet away, at 5 dB below reference level, the dialog in our HT sounds very natural and of natural speech level (dB in the high '70s), not at all like screaming.  The big sound effects and musical peaks sometimes reach 105 dB (115 dB for the sub), C wt, Fast, just as they are supposed to.  Whispering sounds like whispering.  Orchestral music on the soundtracks sounds like the level that most people I know play their orchestral CDs.

Maybe, but if -5 was perfectly normal and pleasant, I wonder why so many people happily set theirs on -25. That should be oddly quiet yet it is pretty common. In my case that's with Audessey killing the mains by 8db. What about music on yours? There is no way I could listen to Metallica at -5 db without ear plugs. I can do -10 for a little while just for fun but I'm just asking for it after that. At this level my RF-7ii's are flexing pretty danged hard on drums.

Also, the spl for natural human speech is more like 55-65 db. A normal conversation at nearly 80 db may be likeable, comfortable, and desired, but its not natural.

Edited December 29, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[garyrc]

 

 

. If I'm sitting 10 feet away and somebody talks at reference level, they'd be screaming at me. I can hear them just fine and it seems fairly normal at -25 db. THX Reference was meant for a large theater that may be full of people. I don't believe it is necessary in a perfectly quiet small living room.

• Reference level is supposed to be Reference level but, man, your Reference level must be very different than mine, which isn't supposed to happen, regardless of room size.  So, something is wrong, somewhere.  
• Sitting 12 feet away, at 5 dB below reference level, the dialog in our HT sounds very natural and of natural speech level (dB in the high '70s), not at all like screaming.  The big sound effects and musical peaks sometimes reach 105 dB (115 dB for the sub), C wt, Fast, just as they are supposed to.  Whispering sounds like whispering.  Orchestral music on the soundtracks sounds like the level that most people I know play their orchestral CDs.

Maybe, but if -5 was perfectly normal and pleasant, I wonder why so many people happily set theirs on -25. That should be oddly quiet yet it is pretty common. In my case that's with Audessey killing the mains by 8db. What about music on yours? There is no way I could listen to Metallica at -5 db without ear plugs. I can do -10 for a little while just for fun but I'm just asking for it after that. At this level my RF-7ii's are flexing pretty danged hard on drums.

Also, the spl for natural human speech is more like 55-65 db. A normal conversation at nearly 80 db may be likeable, comfortable, and desired, but its not natural.

 

 

"Maybe, but if -5 was perfectly normal and pleasant, I wonder why so many people happily set theirs on -25. That should be oddly quiet yet it is pretty common. In my case that's with Audessey killing the mains by 8db."

 

That is a mystery to me.  ...  5 dB below Reference, with movies on Blu-ray, should sound about the same SPL everywhere, if the calibration process is the same.  My mains (Khorns, with a Belle center) don't sound like they are being "killed," even right at Reference.  I do worry about my subwoofer once in a while, though.

 

"What about music on yours?"

 

As you probably know, there are no standards -- i.e. there is no Reference Level -- for music recordings as distributed on CD, SACD, Vinyl, etc.  Reference level is exclusive to movies.   If someone has their AVR or Pre/Pro calibrated by Audyssey for Reference level, the SPL from music disks may or may not sound appropriate at or near that cinema Reference level.

 

Even though I leave Audyssey on no matter what format or what medium I'm playing, the levels that usually sound right for music disks are often about 12 to 25 below cinema Reference (80dB to the low 90s in dB in the room from MLP, with very occasional peaks much higher).  This a very different setting than for movies, which are usually fine at about 5 below Reference.  Yet the orchestral music often sounds to be about the same SPL as the orchestral soundtrack music in movies. 

 

Please note that I usually listen to orchestral music from the Classical, Romantic, or modern era.  Metallica would be a whole different story, since, while the loudest peaks are about the same in the two kinds of music, those peaks only last a moment or two in orchestral, which has much higher dynamic range than Metallica.  I couldn't listen to Metallica at - 5 dB either.

 

In using my Analog Radio Shack SPL meter, I always use "Fast," "C," because I'm trying to catch the peaks at the top of the needle swing, as well as more typical levels at mid-swing.  The other possible setting ("Slow," "A") is compressed and band limited, in order to get average levels in industry.  Try as I might to catch the shortest peaks, PWK pointed out that on a meter with a needle (like mine) the reading will lag 13 dB blow the true SPL on the very briefest peaks. 

 

 I just measured two sections of Mahler's Second Symphony (SACD of the Ivan Fischer version).  A very soft passage (the beginning of movement 4, disk 2, band 2) reads somewhere bellow my meter's range -- the needle is just barely perceptually moving at 10 dB below 60, i.e., 50 dB.  Without changing the volume control setting, the next movement (5, disk 2, band 3) has peaks that read 102 dB.  Applying PWK's 13 dB lag, that would be about 115 dB, for one super brief moment at a time.  PWK said that to recreate the "blood stirring" dynamics of a symphony orchestra, you need "115 dB at your ears."  I certainly agree.   I doubt if it's a coincidence that 115 dB through a subwoofer at an Audyssey microphone position is the max for movies at Reference.

 

"Also, the spl for natural human speech is more like 55-65 db. A normal conversation at nearly 80 db may be likeable, comfortable, and desired, but its not natural."

 

I was curious about that, so a few years ago I carried my SPL meter (at "Fast," "C") into a Dept office at SFSU where 4 or 5 people were talking -- mostly one at a time -- and got readings in the high '70s.  On the chance that people at SFSU might be loud mouths (as I can believe, having worked there for about 20 years), I just took a reading in our living room, where some people were talking..  Conversation ranged from 68 to 76 dB, with the male voices being louder.

[Scrappydue]

Man I must be deaf but I can listen to any music at -5 no problem.

Hey metro can you watch YouTube videos over your system?

[Scrappydue]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uDicylaaksM

Metro try this one. This is one of the best recorded drum tracks I have ever heard. And I get nasty with this one. Subs go up 6db from cal and then I turn this one up +10 over reference. It like sitting front row with stacks on each side of my head. It sounds so awesome. I know you like drums.

[Paducah Home Theater]

"Also, the spl for natural human speech is more like 55-65 db. A normal conversation at nearly 80 db may be likeable, comfortable, and desired, but its not natural."

 

I was curious about that, so a few years ago I carried my SPL meter (at "Fast," "C") into a Dept office at SFSU where 4 or 5 people were talking -- mostly one at a time -- and got readings in the high '70s.  On the chance that people at SFSU might be loud mouths (as I can believe, having worked there for about 20 years), I just took a reading in our living room, where some people were talking..  Conversation ranged from 68 to 76 dB, with the male voices being louder.

That's interesting but there are several independent sources that say otherwise for a single voice. Just google it. I don't think this is right.

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/phys_agents/noise_basic.html

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sound-pressure-d_711.html

This one even states that a "loud" trained vocalist was about 74 db.

http://www.academia.edu/7089275/Maximum_Averaged_and_Peak_Levels_of_Vocal_Sound_Pressure

There are tons more, all of which put normal conversation anywhere from 50-65 db. Can several people talk loudly together and get louder? Yeah probably.

Edited January 1, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Paducah Home Theater]

Man I must be deaf but I can listen to any music at -5 no problem.

Hey metro can you watch YouTube videos over your system?

It depends on the source as to whether I can listen to it that loud. Plain drums over youtube, yeah I can crank it. Metallica on blu ray? Not so much. Yeah I can watch youtube most of the time, some of the videos my PS4 doesn't like, something about Flash.

But yeah look at the Godsmack drum video, I've had that at reference and above, but, its a crappy compressed youtube video without much high end shrill.

Edited January 1, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Scrappydue]

Man I must be deaf but I can listen to any music at -5 no problem.

Hey metro can you watch YouTube videos over your system?

It depends on the source as to whether I can listen to it that loud. Plain drums over youtube, yeah I can crank it. Metallica on blu ray? Not so much. Yeah I can watch youtube most of the time, some of the videos my PS4 doesn't like, something about Flash.

But yeah look at the Godsmack drum video, I've had that at reference and above, but, its a crappy compressed youtube video without much high end shrill.

that video I posted is not crappy quality at all.

[Anotherforumname]

With my Forte II's pretty loud sometimes but non fatiguing.

[Paducah Home Theater]

that video I posted is not crappy quality at all.

I mean, the bass drum sounds neato, probably boomier than a raw amplified bass drum and not quite the same sound such as when the beater hits the skin on a traditional kit, but its cool nonetheless. I cranked it up to +5 (kinda meaningless on youtube videos, but whatever) and had my RF-7ii's sounding better than most people's subs. I had to turn my subs off due to everybody else being asleep. Would have turned it up louder otherwise. They're still probably mad at me, the towers were still booming hard.

Really though, the only thing that was halfway uncomfortably loud even at this level was that snare. Those are electronic cymbals, which he didn't get on very hard, are turned down, are played back over compressed audio, not to mention that it is nothing but drums and during most of the recording he isn't really giving it hell. Its just not the same.

This just hardly compares to the Metallica blu ray or even a much lamer Stone Temple Pilot concert blu ray. Hell I even watched the Rolling Stones tonight at -25 db and it was plenty, and the mix on it isn't on the same level. Pick up Metallica and play it at the same setting on your receiver as this drum kit. The drummer knows what he is doing and the bass sounds cool but I don't think it is a good test in terms of general loudness as compared to other material. It seems to be neat material to show off with but in terms of overall loudness as we are talking about I don't think its a very good example. Cymbals can get much nastier if nothing else. But yeah I can see how four sealed 18's would really boom with this.

Edited January 1, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[garyrc]

 

"Also, the spl for natural human speech is more like 55-65 db. A normal conversation at nearly 80 db may be likeable, comfortable, and desired, but its not natural."

 

I was curious about that, so a few years ago I carried my SPL meter (at "Fast," "C") into a Dept office at SFSU where 4 or 5 people were talking -- mostly one at a time -- and got readings in the high '70s.  On the chance that people at SFSU might be loud mouths (as I can believe, having worked there for about 20 years), I just took a reading in our living room, where some people were talking..  Conversation ranged from 68 to 76 dB, with the male voices being louder.

That's interesting but there are several independent sources that say otherwise for a single voice. Just google it. I don't think this is right.

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/phys_agents/noise_basic.html

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sound-pressure-d_711.html

This one even states that a "loud" trained vocalist was about 74 db.

http://www.academia.edu/7089275/Maximum_Averaged_and_Peak_Levels_of_Vocal_Sound_Pressure

There are tons more, all of which put normal conversation anywhere from 50-65 db. Can several people talk loudly together and get louder? Yeah probably.

 

 

I will pour over these later, but, for now I suspect that most of these measurements were taken at "Slow," "A," which produces a lower reading,  rather than "Fast" "C," which is the way I measure.   My two RS meters (models a couple of decades apart) measure almost identically, as did another meter I used at work, all at "Fast" "C."  

[lflorack]

I have a Yamaha AVR which uses YPAO for calibration.  I calibrated my system (see it below and in links) using YPAO and then I then did some manual adjustments including changing all speakers to small and adjusting the crossovers according to each speaker pair's capabilities.  I then ran manual test tones from the AVR set to '0', measuring and adjusting the each speaker to 75db using an SPL meter (they were all fairly close already).  I then set the subwoofer to 78db so it's runs a little 'hot'. 

 

With all that in mind, I listen to most movies at -20db to -15db - of course depending on the loudness of the movie.

[Budman]

loud

Edited January 2, 2015 by Budman

[garyrc]

I'm still trying to puzzle this out.  A quick survey for all volunteers:

 

1) How loud do modern movies sound in your Home Theater compared to modern movies at your local commercial theater?

 

a) About the same

The Home Theater sounds a little softer

c) The Home Theater sounds considerably softer

d)The Home Theater sounds a little louder

e) The Home Theater sounds considerably louder

 

... and the all important companion question:

 

2) If your home theater is calibrated to Reference Level (via Audyssey, or some other device), what setting do you generally use on the main volume control to run a modern movie on Blu-ray?

 

My response is (a) about the same, and main volume control at about - 5 dB, with a very few exceptions.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Garyrc

[derrickdj1]

I am surprised by the number of people using a meter to set the spl with the various autocalibration systems.

[japosey]

Does this answer your question?

[Youthman]

I am surprised by the number of people using a meter to set the spl with the various autocalibration systems.

Why is that?  It's the same thing really, only more accurate.

[derrickdj1]

I started out checking MCACC with a spl meter and things were never off more than 2 db.  I will use one to set the subs up since I set each one to 67 or 68 db so that the combined spl is around 77 db.  I went to see the Gambler the other day at the theater and was comparing the loudness of speech vs the HT.  It was definitely louder than regular conversation between two people or someone casually talking 10 ft .  I would think it would represent a level of -12 to -18 on the avr.  This is a great topic with a lot of merit since a lot of us want to protect our hearing.

 

It is fun to demo subs and high spl but, not practical to watch movies at reference level.  Shakers allows  me to use lower spl and get all the tactile feel of a movie.  I always wondered why some guys with 8 monster subs had tactile transducers.  A decent listening level makes it easier and more enjoyable for all when watching our favorite movies.