How loud do you listen?

[garyrc]

I don't have a movie rig, but I am wondering after reading this thread if the movies are compressed like CDs to make them louder too? I have no doubt that a gunshot would need to be compressed. Once you begin compressing, there goes the neighborhood? Just wondering.

 

I think action movies are compressed to shove a great deal of sound up nearer to Full Scale, making them sound louder without making the extreme peaks any louder.  Perhaps that's why many people use a Main Volume setting of about - 20 dB.  I see very few action movies, so I'm not sure, but that's my impression.  The movies we run sound just right at about  5 dB below Reference on an Audyssey calibrated sound system, which, according to Audyssey, should put our listening level at about 5 dB below the level the mixers and filmmakers heard it in the booth, and about 5 dB below the level it would play in a properly calibrated theater if the listeners were sitting in the zone in which the calibration people put the microphones.  That sounds very plausible to us.

[garyrc]

 

 

I am only sitting about 6 feet away from my rf-7s.

Your 6 feet away would be 3 or 4 dB different than my 12 feet away in a room, according to an article by PWK in Dope from Hope (he found that 3 doubling of distances was about a 9 or 10 dB difference, averaged over the Khorn bandwidth, in a room at Klipsch that was about 25 feet long and 16 feet wide, as I remember). So your - 30 would be about my - 26, and your -20 would be about my -16. Yet I play at about 5 dB below Reference, and most movies sound about as loud as they do at the local Cinems(s). So there still is a considerable discrepency.

i get what your sayin Gary but if both systems are calibrated with the same avr but different speakers and different distances, at the same level on receiver they should be the same spl. Key word there is should of course

 

 

You're right, of course. 

[Sancho Panza]

^^^ should be...

[garyrc]

 

I can get the measly La Scala shaking our foundation

I fee my LaScalas 200 watts each and there's no way they are going to come close to shaking my foundation.  They simply roll off too high (around 70Hz I believe)

 

 

My Khorns, with the subwoofer turned off, can shake the floor, but not the foundation.  When I used to have them in another room, with no sub, they could make my work table seem to go out of square on the big drums in Fanfare for the Common Man.

[Paducah Home Theater]

I was very surprised at how different movies played back voices yesterday.  Watched three back to back and the voice level as all over the charts.  

 

In the afternoon the kids watched The Princess Diaries at -25 and it was perfectly fine.  

 

Then we watched Captain America: The Winter Soldier last night.  I had to crank it up to -15 to understand all the dialogue and some of the voices were still kind of muffled comparatively, and of course the effects were really loud, but wasn't non-stop.  Much of the gunfire was typical junk, but some of the pistol shots on this recording sounded a bit better, there were a few closeups of the red head that had a better initial concussion and less subwoofer action than usual, sounded less like the usual cannon fire.  It was ok during dialog and I liked the action but yeah it was loud towards the end, my daughter held her hands over her ears.  

 

Watched Looper after that.  Was so loud at -15 that my wife complained, had to back it down to -20 and it was still pretty loud, was plenty loud enough to be exciting and immersive and voices came through well.  During dialogue and normal action I felt it was louder at -20 than Captain America was at -15.  

 

 

So really, unless we are all at least watching the same movies, the numbers we post don't mean much.  I could have had the same level of dialogue and background noise from anywhere from -25 to -10 last night, on the same system.  Even at these numbers I can't hear all that well today, I can tell I was exposed to something loud last night.  I'm going to have to keep it no more than -20 and limit it to one movie a night I guess.  

Edited January 5, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Youthman]

So really, unless we are all at least watching the same movies, the numbers we post don't mean much. I could have had the same level of dialogue and background noise from anywhere from -25 to -10 last night, on the same system. Even at these numbers I can't hear all that well today, I can tell I was exposed to something loud last night. I'm going to have to keep it no more than -20 and limit it to one movie a night I guess.

That is interesting.  Guess it's to be expected since some CD's are that way as well.  The producer has control over how loud it is recorded.

[Youthman]

oops....wrong thread.  LOL

Edited January 5, 2015 by Youthman

[eth2]

 

It's not the super low stuff at 115 db that kills your ears though, its the higher stuff. I used to be able to hit 132 db in my car and I maxed it out all the time.

I'm not sure I follow that logic.  Sound Pressure is Sound Pressure, whether it's high frequencies or low frequencies.  I can't see how 132db of bass cannot be damaging to an unprotected ear.

 

 

 

 

It's not the super low stuff at 115 db that kills your ears though, its the higher stuff. I used to be able to hit 132 db in my car and I maxed it out all the time.

I'm not sure I follow that logic.  Sound Pressure is Sound Pressure, whether it's high frequencies or low frequencies.  I can't see how 132db of bass cannot be damaging to an unprotected ear.

 

 

What?

[Youthman]

What?

What?

[Paducah Home Theater]

oh jeeze here we go metro. So sorry you took this so literally.

I'm just now reading this. To be honest, I had half a bottle of bourbon before I wrote that and the next day fully expected something to come across the wrong way. I'm sorry you literally took it as me saying you should shoot more. No I don't think it's realistic at all but otherwise I was just messing with you and apparently didn't make it obvious enough.

 

Yes gun shots are fake sounding compared to real life. When I Go shoot a shotgun or AR they have no subwoofers built into them that shake my house.

My pet peeve is pistols. They often sound like a cannon in movies, I hate the way it sounds, and cranking it up doesn't really make it better. Since I've been all about car comparisons lately, it would be like watching The Need for Speed and hearing a slow and old throaty V8 when the Lambo's and Bugatti's come out. It just sounds dumb to me.

I think if anything, shotguns could be mimic'ed in tone to some extent. Rifles, no way, not even on the same level.

 

However when I turn my volume up on MY system on a scene like in book of Eli or the shooting scene in open range the gun shots are every bit as loud as shooting my ***** with my 870 with no hearing protection on.

If you want to talk SPL, even at +10 you're only about 55 db shy of a rifle, moreso with a compensator. Even an 18" Rem 870 can produce over 160 db. I have no doubt it is fun at least for a short period of time, but I don't think it can ever sound "real", not in tone nor in decibels. I'm quite sure yours is loud and quite fun if you're into that sort of thing, but your mids and highs aren't producing the numbers on this chart below either. Heaven help your ears if they are, but, they're just not. If even the loudest systems can't get anywhere near these numbers, I just have a hard time even trying to make gunshots sound realistic, especially if it comes with a good dose of hearing loss even while coming up short. We're literally talking about world record SPL competition vehicles that let out a short "burp" at peak power in a small cabin to achieve these numbers.

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

 

speakers

I don't think its about the speakers, or loudness. My aggravation is the recordings. Its just typically not realistic sounding at all. Some movies are worse than others. I have plenty of overhead to get louder than my typical -20 if I thought it helped with realism.

 

By the way always wanted to try a three gun competition. Think it would be fun. Have a buddy that is into it BIG TIME. He has a ton of sponsors and is crazy good. I really don't even like shooting with him cause he just shows up, shows off, then splits lol.

Yeah Dillen is awesome. I can't compete on that level, don't have the time or money even if I had the ability. Some of the pros are running through up to 50,000 rounds a year, traveling to tons of multi-day meets costing as much as $2,500 a weekend, and it is very possible to immediately DQ and all that cash is gone, with nothing to show for it. I've seen a pro's spreadsheet with expenses totaling about $20,000 a year even after sponsors. Its insane. I like the cheap club meets.

Edited January 5, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Scrappydue]

How do you know Dillen?

[Paducah Home Theater]

How do you know Dillen?

 

That's like asking how do I know Jesse Tischauser is awesome without having never met him.  I don't think I know him personally, I may have seen him at Rockcastle before though.  Most of the better guys are social media queens, tons of videos, match results, product reviews, forum and facebook chatter, etc. are out there, you see the same names all the time if you follow the sport.  I sent you a FB request awhile back and he came up as a mutual friend, figured it was pretty obvious who you were talking about.  

[Scrappydue]

I don't remember ever getting a request from you on there? And I didn't know there were few enough people in 3 gun comps that you would know someone from little ol excelsior springs mo. That's too cool.

[garyrc]

 

Watched Looper after that.  Was so loud at -15 that my wife complained, had to back it down to -20 and it was still pretty loud, was plenty loud enough to be exciting and immersive and voices came through well.  During dialogue and normal action I felt it was louder at -20 than Captain America was at -15.  

 

 

So really, unless we are all at least watching the same movies, the numbers we post don't mean much. 

 

 

Looper is one of those movies in which I think they have crammed the sound level right up against Full Scale, and compressed the dynamic range as well.  We had to turn it down three times, as I remember.  We are usually quite comfortable at 5 dB below Audyssey calibrated Reference.  I didn't write down how much we had to turn it down, but at an estimated 3 dB per time, it probably ended up 9 dB below our usual, which would be 14 dB below Reference.  I think they may have experimented placing the peaks of the artificial gunfire at FS, then compressed everything so the other effects, music and dialog were louder, but less dynamic, than usual. 

 

Since Chris K, and other experts, continue to claim that movies are mixed with the control rooms adjusted to Reference level, I think that, once in a while, perhaps on one out of 20 Blu-rays, the people in charge of putting the movies on Blu-ray are fooling around with the sound, so that the SPL in our rooms, with our equipment set on Reference, is louder than that in the control rooms.  In other words, we Blu-ray players have become victims of "the loudness wars," just as we are in the area of Metal, Pop, and Rock CDs and SACDs -- I've never noticed this problem with classical audio disks, or movies prominently featuring orchestral music which are also not Action Movies.

[rebuy]

This is where the rubber meets the road for HT. 

 

In my set up, I set my center levels louder than my main channels.

I know when sound effects happen, the mains are going to blast people

out of the room.  This can be avoided with sound level management.

 

 

Go ahead and put a favorite movie in, turn it up to "comfortable" listen levels

with movie sound effects going at full blast in the parts you are testing.

I said "comfortable",  that's the key word,  Then set your center channel,

the "dialouge channel" a little louder than the mains. 

The goal is to get a good sound level here from the center.

Then turn the master volume down a little and watch again.

Watch the video again with the settings and see if the dialogue channel

is comfy and when the mains kick in with sound effects they are at a much

more sane level without scaring the dog.

 

If you run the front 3 channels at the same volume, you're always

going to be reaching for the remote when the action starts.

[Scrappydue]

This is where the rubber meets the road for HT.

In my set up, I set my center levels louder than my main channels.

I know when sound effects happen, the mains are going to blast people

out of the room. This can be avoided with sound level management.

Go ahead and put a favorite movie in, turn it up to "comfortable" listen levels

with movie sound effects going at full blast in the parts you are testing.

I said "comfortable", that's the key word, Then set your center channel,

the "dialouge channel" a little louder than the mains.

The goal is to get a good sound level here from the center.

Then turn the master volume down a little and watch again.

Watch the video again with the settings and see if the dialogue channel

is comfy and when the mains kick in with sound effects they are at a much

more sane level without scaring the dog.

If you run the front 3 channels at the same volume, you're always

going to be reaching for the remote when the action starts.

i would disagree with your last statement. What center do you have? I notice on smaller setup exactly what you described. HOWEVER on my basement cinema setup every speaker is level matched and I can hear perfectly fine out of the center. In fact for grins the other night with no one else in my house and the hvac off I wanted to see how quiet I could watch a movie and still hear everything fine. I could easily watch a movie at -45 on my cinema setup. I tried the same volume upstairs and you could hear just sounds. No detail in anything, voices were muffled. Just not happening. You want crystal clear dialogue without boosting the channel you gotta step up to a big ol center channel.

[rebuy]

Scrappydue, I run the exact same 3 F20's for the front sound stage.

The issue I'm taking about is the loudness of the mains when "the action starts".

The mixing of today's movies makes it loud when this happens that it makes

your family complain.  I find when I use my formula of boosting the center a

couple of DB above the rest of the system, movies are Much more enjoyable.

It's not that I cannot hear the center, it's that the sound effects are too loud

from the mix of today's engineer's.

[Zen Traveler]

...If you run the front 3 channels at the same volume, you're always

going to be reaching for the remote when the action starts.

 

Fwiw, after running Audyssey I leave the trims to the speakers alone because they are level-matched to my seating position and have excellent results.

[derrickdj1]

It has not been a practice to up the center or cut the mains since autocalibration is doing it's job.  Use MCACC!

Edited January 10, 2015 by derrickdj1

[garyrc]

 

...If you run the front 3 channels at the same volume, you're always

going to be reaching for the remote when the action starts.

 

Fwiw, after running Audyssey I leave the trims to the speakers alone because they are level-matched to my seating position and have excellent results.

 

 

Although movies vary in the average loudness of their sound effects (but hardly at all in the brief peaks of the same effects), I have only found one movie that required the center channel to be turned up (The Walker). 

 

Audyssey does a great job of setting the front three channels.

 

My family doesn't complain, nor do our guests, save one.  That one wears earplugs to the commercial theaters, to our house (even before we had HT), and to sleep with.

 

There have been a few times when I have turned the overall sound level down, but they are quite rare.

 

My family enjoys dynamics in music as well as in movie sound effects.  When the score is marked ff, we want it ff.  On rare occasions, when a composer has marked something fff (such as Bernstein's barbaric Presto Barbaro in the score of On the Waterfront) that's the way we want it.  We were sad that the '50 mono optical constricted dynamic range soundtrack of Waterfront was not up to the job, and gave us about f 1/2 instead.

 

It is the filmmakers, (often the director), not the engineers who make the decisions about sound level in the final versions of the films.  Most theaters run the films at Reference level, so all is well.  Just as in any other form of art (or entertainment) I want to experience what the artist(s) intended.  Normally, if I play my equipment at Audyssey calibrated Reference level, I do think I'm getting at approx the volume that was intended.  I usually run movies at 5 dB below Reference, as a safety factor.  I turn up a (very) few, and turn down a (very) few.  I strongly suspect that some -- a few -- Blu-rays are compressed, and the average level raised, because the Blu-ray people want it that way, for some diabolical reason.  

 

In any case, I would think that if the center needs to be turned up something went wrong with the calibration, or the HT is too reverberant, or _______?