ninjai18 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Side by side: Mills ceramic resistors vs. "regular" ceramic resistors used in the majority of Klipsch networks. They are both wire-wound, and both have ceramic cores. Both are non-inductive up into the 100s of kHz range (I've personally tested). Tolerance is 1% vs. 2%. Top of the range Mundorf Supreme resistors clocking in at $15-$20 each are ceramic core, wire-wound, 2% tolerance and non-inductive. The biggest thing that changes between resistors is power dissipation. The tiny ones used in the smallest bookshelf speakers are 5W, while the ones used in Palladium are 20W or 25W. They are of the same type as the Mundorfs listed above. Mills resistors are 12W, and the Mundorf Supreme are 20W. As a resistor heats up, it creates more and more of what's called Johnson noise, which is caused by thermal variations. The way to lessen this is to have greater heat dissipation, hence, the use of "high power" resistors in circuits where while you'll never cook the resistor, you want as little noise as possible. Palladium took this approach. By design, all that a crossover component can do is be less detrimental than any other. It cannot improve signal fidelity. Resistors, by virtue of being the most linear of all passive components, have the least effect by far. Inductors are absolutely the most carefully selected ones, yet get the least amount of attention. Changing an inductor of equivalent value but different DCR can quite literally ruin your crossover network and thus speaker performance. All Palladium inductors are air-core and were chosen for a reason. The ones in the P37, 38 and 39 low pass sections are about the diameter of a Nalgene and could double as 1kg bracelets. Just a touch of light on the selection of components in crossover networks. Say what you will, but you cannot deny results. Every person who heard my speakers before the mod agrees that they sound far far superior after the mod, for minimal cost to boot. People would not be paying people like Bob, Al and Dean to do mods to their crossovers if it only made negligible improvements. It's simply factually incorrect to say the difference is minimal, it is not. People keep saying "they chose them for a design reason" - as though they couldn't possibly choose lower quality parts - yet every person that upgrades their crossovers loves the improvement. It truly amazes me that I am being pushed aside and scoffed at for having the "audacity" to say they could use improvement. I never even attacked Klipsch, I have stated multiple times on this forum that they are my favorite speakers and I love them as a company. Amazing that being a loyal a fan isn't good enough, I suppose "zealot" would be preferred.and yet hear you go again disagreeing with someone who im pretty sure is a Klipsch employee. You asked for an answer. The guy gave you one. Yet it's not good enough.Calling me a fanboy doesn't hurt my feelings. I like Klipsch speakers and other companies as well. Klipsch suits my ear for what I can afford. If you hadn't noticed I own their cinema line and the palladiums. Is that fanboy to do that? Lol sure why not. Guess what? I bet you any amount of money you want that all of them sound better than your modded rf-3ii's. Even with their "crappy" crossovers. Im not the only one that feels your whining a bit either. So keep boohoo'ing as you call it. So now we're relegating to d**k measuring... Boy oh boy, you sure got me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjai18 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 two weeks ago he couldn't read capacitor values, schematics, or solder to save your (pcb's) life. Now he's the resident expert on crossover mods, the electrical properties of inductors, and has made it his personal mission to change Klipsch's business model? did i miss something? My information on what makes a good crossover comes from DeanG and Bob Crites, which some might argue are fairly knowledgeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) *frantically searching to make sure it's not me you're talking about* Nah, different forum and different brand fanboy. btw, this is a very relevant concern for me. Dean reworked my cornwall B2 networks about a year ago using the principle of battery biasing, basic parts-express caps, and the original 32yr old "everything else". They sound great and were indeed an improvement over the original aging networks. I can certainly understand upgrading old crossovers as supposedly caps and resistors can fall out of spec and the original networks aren't available anymore, then there's issues like the RF-7's (not 7ii) sounding harsh so people swap to a different value resistor to chill them out a little. I just have a harder time believing that brand new flagship speakers would see a world of difference if you simply swap resistors to another brand of the same value, especially when the designer himself is here saying they are made in nearly the exact same way, resistors don't matter that much anyway, and the impedance is a non-issue and measures similarly to the others. Edited March 30, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjai18 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) My good man, I think you misunderstand. Firstly, I hope you realized that I am a loudspeaker engineer for Klipsch who makes said "design decisions". No engineer would ever spec a part of low or poor quality. The crossover is the heart of the speaker, and easily the most important part. Minor changes here and there have massive ramifications. To "upgrade" your speakers with Mills resistors and Auricaps of equivalent value is your prerogative. We will never endorse such a modification, however. To "upgrade" your speakers by changing values means that it is no longer design intent and you've tailored the sound of a Klipsch speaker to something you happen to prefer. That's perfectly fine since everyone has their own taste. This does not make it a better Klipsch speaker. It makes it a speaker using Klipsch parts that you've modded. Either way, that's your call. However, to state that the RF7 with its stock resistors is horribly grainy sound and simply by putting in a different ceramic resistor you can create audio nirvana implies that the people who designed your speaker in the first place are clueless. If the difference is so stark, then we clearly don't know what we're doing otherwise we would have done it in the first place. Alternatively, it could mean that we do know what we're doing, but we knowingly neutered the flagship Reference speaker. Consider that for a moment. You are free to mod, purchase mods and post mods on here at your heart's content. Us engineers are fully aware of the science behind capacitors, inductors and resistors. We don't chose parts that compromise the drivers and cabinets we spend so much time and effort designing. If you hear a large difference using a different resistor, then that's fantastic that you're enjoying your speaker even more. If you like them stock, then that's just as fantastic. Do not assume, however, that we're putting cheap, low quality parts in products that we're proud of. More to the point, do not imply that had we only done what is obvious, that we'd have a far superior product. Trust me, we've got it under control. This really is amazing to me, and I sure would love it if others with mods would chime in on this. How you could possibly say the cheap ceramic resistors and tiny brown caps are as good of quality as some Daytons, Mills, Jantzens, or Mundorfs ect is beyond me... I am wondering if you have actually heard a fully upgraded Klipsch crossover... It is not just my "personal preference" that they sound better, I have played them for many friends and family members, and everyone universally agrees that they are, without exception, much improved. Not in a million years would I ever go back to stock with how they sound now, I dare say anyone would agree with this sentiment. Cramming parts so close together is another issue with the crossovers. I am not saying you are a bad engineer, I am saying that Klipsch are making these decisions for financial reasons, i.e., cutting corners to save money. I understand many companies do this (doesn't make it right), I am simply suggesting the radical notion that spending a little extra on quality crossover components (the heart of the speaker, as you put it) would be a welcome upgrade. No offense, but if you had it really handled, the upgrades I did would not be so blatantly obvious to myself and everyone who hears them. (no, they did not have any mechanical problems prior to upgrade) But you know, according to many on this forum, that's just crazy talk... Good grief. Edited March 30, 2015 by ninjai18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Dave, before you get into the weeds with this guy.. here's some context: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/152035-newbie-looking-to-upgrade-crossovers-on-my-reference-rf-3-ii/?p=1850422 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjai18 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Heh, ad hominem attacks. Original. How about you actually refute my points, Thaddy? Which part do you disagree with, exactly? So parts SHOULD be crammed together shouldering one another? Or that Mills resistors are not better quality than cheap ceramics? Or how about the coils laying less than an inch apart down flat on the board...? I'm waiting... Sure doesn't take much to get a hair up this forum's ***. Edited March 30, 2015 by ninjai18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Heh, ad hominem attacks. Original. How about you actually refute my points, Thaddy? Which part do you disagree with, exactly? So parts SHOULD be crammed together shouldering one another? Or that Mills resistors are not better quality than cheap ceramics? Or how about the coils laying less than an inch apart down flat on the board...? I'm waiting... Sure doesn't take much to get a hair up this forum's ***. i'm not an electrical engineer, so i have no idea.. and my point is that neither do you. You're presenting this facade of knowledge and authority when all you're doing to simply regurgitating phrases you that you read when Dean expressed caution surrounding your idea of transplanting the RF-3 networks from PCB to slabs of wood. and then when a Klipsch Engineer does engage you for discussion, you simply pass him off as lazy and uninformed. you're arguing on a topic with which you have absolutely no business doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjai18 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Heh, ad hominem attacks. Original. How about you actually refute my points, Thaddy? Which part do you disagree with, exactly? So parts SHOULD be crammed together shouldering one another? Or that Mills resistors are not better quality than cheap ceramics? Or how about the coils laying less than an inch apart down flat on the board...? I'm waiting... Sure doesn't take much to get a hair up this forum's ***. i'm not an electrical engineer, so i have no idea.. and my point is that neither do you. You're presenting this facade of knowledge and authority when all you're doing to simply regurgitating phrases you that you read when Dean expressed caution surrounding your idea of transplanting the RF-3 networks from PCB to slabs of wood. and then when a Klipsch Engineer does engage you for discussion, you simply pass him off as lazy and uninformed. you're arguing on a topic with which you have absolutely no business doing so. Ahh yes, so you are an elitist who believes only people with a degree in a subject have the right to say anything, now you make more sense. I clearly don't have a clue, seeing as my upgrades worked extremely well. None of my points about crossover parts quality and layout have been effectively refuted. So I'll just let that stand. Edited March 30, 2015 by ninjai18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveWJr Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Dave, before you get into the weeds with this guy.. here's some context: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/152035-newbie-looking-to-upgrade-crossovers-on-my-reference-rf-3-ii/?p=1850422 Oh no worries, I'm completely content with his viewpoint. If his preference is for a specific type of component, then that's his perfectly respectable opinion to prefer it. It does not mean, however, that we haven't measured, blind listened to and catalogued the values, tolerances, ESR, ESL and other aspects of insertion loss of about 15 different brands of caps including all those listed thus far and those used in our products. We use what we need to get the most out of our designs. If someone feels that they can get more out of them, then that's their choice. A "higher quality" capacitor or resistor does not imply a better loudspeaker if the original component lets the drivers function as intended. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 None of my points have been effectively refuted. So I'll just let that stand. You mean except for the lengthy and informative posts from the designer himself? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted March 30, 2015 Moderators Share Posted March 30, 2015 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjai18 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 None of my points have been effectively refuted. So I'll just let that stand. You mean except for the lengthy and informative posts from the designer himself? Again, nothing I said was effectively refuted. Not sure what's confusing about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I've often wondered why all automakers don't use Titanium connecting rods and four piston calipers on all there models... I mean it would be much better if they did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjai18 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 I've often wondered why all automakers don't use Titanium connecting rods and four piston calipers on all there models... I mean it would be much better if they did! Not remotely the same. Good god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjai18 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) I'd love it if someone could enlighten me on how much better the cheap ceramics are than Mills resistors, and also how good it is for the sound quality to cram all the parts as close together as possible. I'm also truly puzzled about the coils laying right next to each other being clearly better for the audio than standing one up and moving them further apart... Hmph, guess everything I read from crossover experts and the people I talked to at Parts Express are just full of it... Go figure. I guess this is all nonsense - Apparently placing them in a "problematic" fashion is a "good" design decision... Edited March 30, 2015 by ninjai18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Dave, before you get into the weeds with this guy.. here's some context: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/152035-newbie-looking-to-upgrade-crossovers-on-my-reference-rf-3-ii/?p=1850422 Oh no worries, I'm completely content with his viewpoint. If his preference is for a specific type of component, then that's his perfectly respectable opinion to prefer it. It does not mean, however, that we haven't measured, blind listened to and catalogued the values, tolerances, ESR, ESL and other aspects of insertion loss of about 15 different brands of caps including all those listed thus far and those used in our products. We use what we need to get the most out of our designs. If someone feels that they can get more out of them, then that's their choice. A "higher quality" capacitor or resistor does not imply a better loudspeaker if the original component lets the drivers function as intended. None of my points have been effectively refuted. So I'll just let that stand. You mean except for the lengthy and informative posts from the designer himself? Again, nothing I said was effectively refuted. Not sure what's confusing about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twk123 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Dave, before you get into the weeds with this guy.. here's some context: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/152035-newbie-looking-to-upgrade-crossovers-on-my-reference-rf-3-ii/?p=1850422 Oh no worries, I'm completely content with his viewpoint. If his preference is for a specific type of component, then that's his perfectly respectable opinion to prefer it. It does not mean, however, that we haven't measured, blind listened to and catalogued the values, tolerances, ESR, ESL and other aspects of insertion loss of about 15 different brands of caps including all those listed thus far and those used in our products. We use what we need to get the most out of our designs. If someone feels that they can get more out of them, then that's their choice. A "higher quality" capacitor or resistor does not imply a better loudspeaker if the original component lets the drivers function as intended. Hey at least you didnt make the WRX look like a Prius and then refuse to but a turbo in the BRZ like Subaru did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjai18 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) It's so funny, because the better parts and different crossover layout would not be hard to accomplish. I dare say no one would think they sounded "inferior" with these parts, cost really would not go up much, either. I am not suggesting massive caps that are $40 each, for Christ's sake. The difference is obvious. Some of you clearly need to hear upgraded crossovers in Klipsch speakers. Edited March 30, 2015 by ninjai18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Some of you clearly need to hear upgraded crossovers in Klipsch speakers. .... i just... but, i... *sigh* ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjai18 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Some of you clearly need to hear upgraded crossovers in Klipsch speakers. .... i just... but, i... *sigh* ... All silly replies with zero knowledge or insight added. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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