Can we talk...

[billybob]

The now or, in the present I was vaguely referring to, was the existence here on earth, in a kind, yet cruel, contradiction amounting to chaotic thought, at least as represented here. The meat consumers are in a metamorphosis of change here in the now.

Edited May 4, 2015 by billybob

[Paducah Home Theater]

Meat eaters didn't exist until after the fall.

So you are saying the fall was a good thing?

I'm not saying its good or bad, I'm just saying that depicting animals eating each other before the fall is theologically incorrect.

[BigStewMan]

He says "thus, spiders make webs, and men make myths

  I've not read him; but, what does he say about his own conclusions -- does he consider them myths as well?

[mangofirst]

Well!

Blackbirds, flowers, a crutch, a flute... this is art? It's not normal. Well, maybe unless you're Alyson Hannigan. "This one time, at band camp..."

Hahaha I thought the same thing when I saw that in the painting.

[Mallette]

Crikey, quite a scintillating exchange of erudite syntax on recondite and arcane subject matter, carried on by those most often found chugging Pabst Blue Ribbon and listening to Funkadelic at 110db. 

 

Dave

[Guest Steven1963]

Well, maybe unless you're Alyson Hannigan.

 

Alyson Hannigan is hot! She's got that 'somethin' about her.

[oscarsear]

Crikey, quite a scintillating exchange of erudite syntax on recondite and arcane subject matter, carried on by those most often found chugging Pabst Blue Ribbon and listening to Funkadelic at 110db. 

 

Dave

I have followed this thread from the start and not being a student of art history declined to join in............ but the dialogue has been most impressive.  I have some news words for Scrabble and lots of grist for new nightmares.  My brother made his living as a fine artist.  He's good but poor acuz he refused to accommodate the desires of others.  No patrons.  Sold what he sold, and his tastes were not shared by enough folks.  Mebbe after he dies.

[garyrc]

 

He says "thus, spiders make webs, and men make myths

  I've not read him; but, what does he say about his own conclusions -- does he consider them myths as well?

 

Hmmm.... his conclusions aren't in story form ....

While I think about your question, just to make sure we are all on the same page, I need to assert that Campbell, Jung, and some other students of mythology are not thinking of myths as misconceptions or falsehoods, and they are not thinking of them as depicted in your local planetarium, as primarily attempts to explain nature, history, rituals, etc.

Rather, they thought of them as natural products of being human, i.e., products of being "wired" as we are, just as the spiders in the section of my post you quoted are "wired" to make certain kinds of webs.  Campbell and Jung thought that this partly explained the similar storylines of myths around the world, as an alternative to the popular idea of cultures "borrowing" from one another.  As I read them, they gave some weight to both explanations. 

To stave off another objection, this "wiring" does not necessarily imply that there is not a Creator (a "master wirer"), or an Intelligence behind all those galaxies out there.  In fact, I was introduced to Jung's writings by a Protestant minister.  Jung himself, in a reversal of the way terminology is usually used, said that since beliefs were what intellectuals in his generation came to after adding up the evidence, he, in that sense, did not "believe" that there was a God.  On the other hand, he said, he knew that there was a God, because he could experience this God directly, the way he could taste a piece of fruit. 

I think they both thought of myths as reactions to, or vessels of, basically ineffable truths and elicitors of insight in listeners (and now readers) into those truths.  At one point, I think Campbell characterized myths as poetic readings of the mystery of life.

So, Bigstewman, I'm not at all sure if I can answer your question.  Campbell acknowledged a category of mythology as deliberately composed (Lord of the Rings, The Hobbitt, and I'm sure, though I never read it, or heard him say it, Star Wars and 2001: A Space Odyssey, since both filmmakers explicitly credited Campbell's writings as being an inspiration).  But the question of whether he considered his conclusions in his essays and books to be myths ... my guess is he would be very unlikely to put it that way, but he acknowledged that serious writers of non-fiction, as well as teachers, attempt to close in on the truth, and that their works, like myths, with luck, stimulate a search for truth that goes far beyond the printed page, the classroom, or the campfire circle.

 

Edited May 4, 2015 by garyrc

[mangofirst]

He says "thus, spiders make webs, and men make myths

I've not read him; but, what does he say about his own conclusions -- does he consider them myths as well?

Hmmm.... his conclusions aren't in story form ....

While I think about your question, just to make sure we are all on the same page, I need to assert that Campbell, Jung, and some other students of mythology are not thinking of myths as misconceptions or falsehoods, and they are not thinking of them as depicted in your local planetarium, as primarily attempts to explain nature, history, rituals, etc.

Rather, they thought of them as natural products of being human, i.e., products of being "wired" as we are, just as the spiders in the section of my post you quoted are "wired" to make certain kinds of webs. Campbell and Jung thought that this partly explained the similar storylines of myths around the world, as an alternative to the popular idea of cultures "borrowing" from one another. As I read them, they gave some weight to both explanations.

To stave off another objection, this "wiring" does not necessarily imply that there is not a Creator (a "master wirer"), or an Intelligence behind all those galaxies out there. In fact, I was introduced to Jung's writings by a Protestant minister. Jung himself, in a reversal of the way terminology is usually used, said that since beliefs were what intellectuals in his generation came to after adding up the evidence, he, in that sense, did not "believe" that there was a God. On the other hand, he said, he knew that there was a God, because he could experience this God directly, the way he could taste a piece of fruit.

I think they both thought of myths as reactions to, or vessels of, basically ineffable truths and elicitors of insight in listeners (and now readers) into those truths. At one point, I think Campbell characterized myths as poetic readings of the mystery of life.

So, Bigstewman, I'm not at all sure if I can answer your question. Campbell acknowledged a category of mythology as deliberately composed (Lord of the Rings, The Hobbitt, and I'm sure, though I never read it, or heard him say it, Star Wars and 2001: A Space Odyssey, since both filmmakers explicitly credited Campbell's writings as being an inspiration). But the question of whether he considered his conclusions in his essays and books to be myths ... my guess is he would be very unlikely to put it that way, but he acknowledged that serious writers of non-fiction, as well as teachers, attempt to close in on the truth, and that their works, like myths, with luck, stimulate a search for truth that goes far beyond the printed page, the classroom, or the campfire circle.

The Power of Myth is the written version of the PBS Bill Moyers interview of Campbell that I saw someone mention earlier in the thread.

I think I like best Campbell's view of rites of passage and what the lack of them could mean for a society.

Also in honor of Star Wars Day, BAM:

May the Fourth be with you.

Edited May 5, 2015 by mangofirst

[mangofirst]

Shifting from Bosch to Campbell now I reckon. A favorite response from him:

[mangofirst]

Crikey, quite a scintillating exchange of erudite syntax on recondite and arcane subject matter, carried on by those most often found chugging Pabst Blue Ribbon and listening to Funkadelic at 110db. 

 

Dave

I have followed this thread from the start and not being a student of art history declined to join in............ but the dialogue has been most impressive.  I have some news words for Scrabble and lots of grist for new nightmares.  My brother made his living as a fine artist.  He's good but poor acuz he refused to accommodate the desires of others.  No patrons.  Sold what he sold, and his tastes were not shared by enough folks.  Mebbe after he dies.

You're the second person I've seen who has said something like this. You don't have to be a student or expert on art or literature to respond to it. That's the whole reason I started this thread: to see responses from all. I love seeing interpretations that are different than the standard.

[billybob]

Three semester hour of a Humanities course hardly makes me a learned art critic but, I liked art before attending. The lack or inability of tools to convey my interpretation, I give credit to those public institutions of supposed higher learning.

I am however sincere as Fortunato is about his wine.

Now back to Bosch  

[mangofirst]

Three semester hour of a Humanities course hardly makes me a learned art critic but, I liked art before attending. The lack or inability of tools to convey my interpretation, I give credit to those public institutions of supposed higher learning.

I am however sincere as Fortunato is about his wine.

Now back to Bosch

Tondal's Vision

Edited May 5, 2015 by mangofirst

[BigStewMan]

ever wonder what the inside of the brain looks like during an acid trip?

[Paducah Home Theater]

Well, maybe unless you're Alyson Hannigan.

 

Alyson Hannigan is hot! She's got that 'somethin' about her.

Half goofy looking half nerdy girls are the best. Alyson is like that, as is Carey Mulligan, Zooey Deschanel, and Taylor Swift. Chloe Grace Moretz will be a knockout before long for the same reason.

[Mallette]

Mark, is that a version of Guernica with which I am not familiar, or is it colorized and reversed on purpose?  Perhaps your point here is simply over my head.

 

As to Campbell, I find him boosted beyond his station by Moyer's hero worship.  I was barely able to get through those back in the day as Moyers mainly sat and worshipped. 

 

Campbell is marvelous...but I found a number of errors in fact in his work that rather dimmed my own hero worship. 

 

Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention. Sir Francis Bacon

Dave
 

[Travis In Austin]

A LOT of my life's philosophy blossomed in Hope in the late 70's early 80's. It was a center of counterculture that few knew about. Most due to Klipsch and Associates.

Dawkins is too arrogant in his presentations. I much prefer Joseph Campbell. Castaneda was prevalent around Hope in the time period I mentioned.

I read all of Casteneda, starting out as a high school assignment. Hard to picture him being prevalent around Hope, that must have been cool. Was there a place you all got together? Dry county, I can't picture a coffee bar there either.

[Travis In Austin]

Meat eaters didn't exist until after the fall.

So you are saying the fall was a good thing?

I'm not saying its good or bad, I'm just saying that depicting animals eating each other before the fall is theologically incorrect.

Thelogically, there isn't agreement on this. Genesis 1:29 is debated and there are views on both sides.

There are, however, Age of Innocence myths common among many ethnic groups where there man didn't eat meat. Ovid's, The Metamorphosis for example.

[Rivervalleymgb]

 

A LOT of my life's philosophy blossomed in Hope in the late 70's early 80's. It was a center of counterculture that few knew about. Most due to Klipsch and Associates.

Dawkins is too arrogant in his presentations. I much prefer Joseph Campbell. Castaneda was prevalent around Hope in the time period I mentioned.

I read all of Casteneda, starting out as a high school assignment. Hard to picture him being prevalent around Hope, that must have been cool. Was there a place you all got together? Dry county, I can't picture a coffee bar there either.

 

For drinking in public we went to Texarkana. Friend's houses, mainly. We had some annual large get-togethers. The coon cookings and the Klipsch harvest festivals at Don Peterson's house. Weekly poker games, etc.

[BigStewMan]

 

 

 

Meat eaters didn't exist until after the fall.

So you are saying the fall was a good thing?

I'm not saying its good or bad, I'm just saying that depicting animals eating each other before the fall is theologically incorrect.

Thelogically, there isn't agreement on this. Genesis 1:29 is debated and there are views on both sides.

 

yes there is ... and I've only met one other person that shared my view.