Macho Kiljoy Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 OK, I have researched a lot and cannot make a decision. Help me, please. Currently I have a pair of Cornwalls and love their sound, but am a believer that things can always sound better. I am trying to decide if I want to get a Fastrac horn or add an Altec 811b. Has anyone had experience with both? Another option is to get Lascala bass bins and K402s. Would those sound significantly better than the Fastrac or 811b's? My amps are Juicy Music pCats with a Blueberry Xtreme. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I believe that I know the answer to the last question that you pose - based on your progression of questions. Perhaps the best person to talk to is Wrinkles, who has gone down that very path. He now owns Jub clones, but he owned JubScalas for a few years before that. Putting a K-402 with a good 2" compression driver (EQed properly) on top of a horn-loaded bass bin will beat anything that you've heard...by a very large measure. You will miss the 40-70 Hz LFs of the Cornwall by going to a La Scala bass bin, but everything else will get rather dramatically better. Getting a good horn-loaded sub will complete the picture. Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevenarrow Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 ^ what he said ^ A sideways move is always a sideways move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) Deleted. Edited December 17, 2015 by David H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) I would say two different bass bins=two different sounds. Have you heard folded horn bass, it might not be what you are after? I don't care for the bass from the Lascala The exact reason I ask. I would say find someone local that has LaScalas and give them a try. I wasn't a big fan of the Altec 511b but the 811 might be better. Once I went to EV Hp640 then too HP 9040, I was hooked on big horns. I still wouldn't mind hearing Dave's Eliptracs, either one. Edited December 17, 2015 by duder1982 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) I suggest if you want to go with the monster K-402 pair it with the Jubilee bass bin the way it was meant to be. This looks like marketing: "either/or thinking". I recommend talking to Islander or Wrinkles instead. I run a time-aligned 3-way K-510 JuBelle center, and I can tell you that it blows away anything that I've heard with the exception of the Jubs on either side or a K-402 2-way JuBelle with a high quality compression driver. I've tried all combinations between the Jubs. Chris Edited December 17, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I, otoh, much prefer the sound of the LaScalas horn loaded bass. The LaScala needs a good corner, if you can provide that, the bass is fantastic. I've heard the JubScala - it's awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cincymat Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I suggest if you want to go with the monster K-402 pair it with the Jubilee bass bin the way it was meant to be. Chris Wow Chris, I've never seen this photo before. That's quite the set-up. Now back to the original poster's topic...... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 [OT: That's the setup that I use for unmastering my recordings. I found that getting the response of the setup flat in FR is pretty important before starting that work. I've found that even small amounts of non-flat frequency response in the setup will significantly affect the usability of the resulting unmastered tracks. This is one reason why I cringe when I read that mixing and mastering engineers are using near field monitors in their control rooms. That practice alone will basically negate all the hard work that the musicians put into their music, and correlates with significantly reducing the overall sales of their albums, I've found via my unmastering experiences.] Some say that using La Scala or Belle bass bins are actually better overall than Khorn bass bins due to their extension above 400 Hz, and that coupling them to a horn-loaded sub gets you the most flexible and highest overall performing setup for rooms that don't have good corners or that are a bit too small for Khorns. JubScalas and JuBelles using K-402 horns on top that have been time-aligned really have no effective minimum listening distance. They also don't have the midrange collapsing vertical polar issues in small rooms that the Heritage line have with their K-400-derived midrange horns: you don't have to worry nearly as much about low ceilings, narrow placement within the room along a short wall, and bare floors without carpet with them. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I had the Altec 811b horns and they are only marginally better than the stock K-400/401. The wooden tractrix horns are significantly better than those. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 This looks like marketing: "either/or thinking". I recommend talking to Islander or Wrinkles instead. Better yet, just do whatever Chris A says. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I had the Altec 811b horns and they are only marginally better than the stock K-400/401. The wooden tractrix horns are significantly better than those. I agree, the Altec horns are good but not great and the K-400 has its flaws but better in some ways and i only heard Daves horn in a center channel but it definitely had a better sound compared to the 811, 511 & K-400-401. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) "This looks like marketing: "either/or thinking". I recommend talking to Islander or Wrinkles instead." Cheap shot. Seriously, this bullshit yet again. Not everyone wants to deal with the pro equipment and EQing. There's still something to be said for simplicity, and a sound that brings some comfort - I am no fan of titanium and not everyone can run out and get TAD compression drivers. Dave builds a great sounding horn and the workmanship is stellar. They drop straight in, retaining much of the stock look. They sound great with the Type A and AA networks ... ... WHICH I HAPPEN TO SELL, but doesn't change the fact that it sounds great. There's a troll and a shill on the loose, why not expend your efforts on him instead. Sorry everyone, but this has gotten so very old with me. Edited December 17, 2015 by Deang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Dean, The OP asked the question about what would be better and specifically asked about the 402s. Did you catch that? For an upgrade in this case it's actually tough to make a recommendation. With cornwalls, if you want to change the horn it's a major woodworking project unless you sit it on top of the cabinet which I would not be happy with. Moving to Lascalas and adding horn mods of any type right off is a high cost. It's almost a case of recommending selling the cornwalls and starting from scratch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 OK, I have researched a lot and cannot make a decision. Help me, please. Currently I have a pair of Cornwalls and love their sound, but am a believer that things can always sound better. I am trying to decide if I want to get a Fastrac horn or add an Altec 811b. Has anyone had experience with both? Another option is to get Lascala bass bins and K402s. Would those sound significantly better than the Fastrac or 811b's? My amps are Juicy Music pCats with a Blueberry Xtreme. Thanks in advance. The k402 atop a LaScala is a big horn. The 402 is actually larger in outside dimensions than the entire LaScala so it's like setting a LaScala sideways on top of a LaScala! I can't comment on the Altec nor Fastrac. I'm presuming both are available in a 2" format and I think that a substantial move on its own. Here's an offer for you (presuming you are within range of UPS or someone... I have an extra K510 that is currently not in use. I can attach a K69 driver to it (the same driver used on a typical Jubilee setup with the K402) If you want to cover shipping both ways, I'd be happy to ship it to you so you can try it for a couple weeks. I don't know if you have an active crossover nor do I know what any settings might be if you set it atop a Cornwall. I'm guessing the general crowd here could get you close enough to call it workable (I couldn't) This would give you an idea of what this type horn might sound like on your existing speaker, then know that the k402 is even better. Or, "where are you", and perhaps there is someone near enough to you where you could give a K402 a listen on your own. That said, I fall (a bit arbitrarily I might add) on the LaScala/K402 side of the equation. I'm a fan of the company and like that it's a Klipsch product through & through (but for the driver, lest anyone get picky) I'm a plug & play kind of guy so it's meaningful to me that the company has provided the DSP parameters for the JubeScala (K402 atop LaScala). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) I have an extra K510 that is currently not in use. Does it have the 'mump' on it? Just curious. If he doesn't take you up on it, I would love to try it out on the LS I am refurbing.I currently have no mid horn for the cabs, so trying different horns would be a treat. (I do however, have some JBL 2365 horns, which I would also like to try on them, but would at least need to borrow someones K69 -- hint hint) I can't comment on the Altec nor Fastrac. I'm presuming both are available in a 2" format and I think that a substantial move on its own. The Altecs mentioned are 1 inch throats. The LS Fastrac LaScala is also for 1 inch drivers. Bruce Edited December 17, 2015 by Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I have an extra K510 that is currently not in use. Does it have the 'mump' on it? Just curious. If he doesn't take you up on it, I would love to try it out on the LS I am refurbing.I currently have no mid horn for the cabs, so trying different horns would be a treat. (I do however, have some JBL 2365 horns, which I would also like to try on them, but would at least need to borrow someones K69 -- hint hint) I can't comment on the Altec nor Fastrac. I'm presuming both are available in a 2" format and I think that a substantial move on its own. The Altecs mentioned are 1 inch throats. The LS Fastrac LaScala is also for 1 inch drivers. Bruce No mumps, it is what I would call Version II. There was evidently the original K510. I don't know what it was made of but, it was made of some kind of hard material, resin I presume. Then came the K510 that most of us are aware of (without mumps) and then, there is the mumpy version. I don't know how close you are to downtown Chattanooga per se but it looks like I'll have some meetings down there once a quarter. Just had the discussion today so I don't know when the next one is, I'd guess January to discuss the 4th quarter results. I could bring it to you if you could get to downtown. Do you have an active? I didn't know the Altec & Fastrac had 1" throats. It's darn near impossible to go back to a smaller format horn once you get accustomed to the larger format. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 If you want to hotrod your Cornwalls, then I would highly recommend any of these HF sections: http://www.parts-express.com/qsc-pl-000446gp-replacement-waveguide-horn-for-hpr152i-2-bolt--245-625 http://www.diysoundgroup.com/plastic-seos-12/seos-15-cd.html ...with the BMS 4550 HF driver, or Denovo dna360. or: K510 w/ K69 driver (or you can go fancier on the 2" driver) ...I think all three of those options will sound much nicer than an 811b or a Fastrac. I've played with / measured all of them in person except for the SEOS. The advantage to a 1" throat is better high frequency performance, but it'll come at some expense to the lower mids. If you like to lean on the throttle and thrive on thwack, then you probably want to stick to a 2" throat when going 2-way. The next step after improving the tweeter section would be to upgrade the woofer. I don't have a lot of experience with the K33, but getting up to ~1kHz for a xover frequency is probably asking too much. The K48 can handle it with a little EQ, but I'm not sure you can get there with a normal passive xover. I don't know how the Crite's 15" driver performs at higher frequencies, but there are definitely Eminence options that would work in a similar cabinet - and you could even gain some LF output while you're at it too. I think the K402 is better than all those other horns, but then I think it'd look kinda silly with a "tiny" 15 inch driver mated to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 The K402 on top of the LaScala kind of reminds me of the Snoopy/Vulture picture. No idea why, just does. Yeah, it might be stupid....get over it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 The K402 on top of the LaScala kind of reminds me of the Snoopy/Vulture picture. No idea why, just does. Yeah, it might be stupid....get over it Just throw a blanket over it and tell everybody that its your dirty laundry pile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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