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Chris A

A K-402-Based Full-Range Multiple-Entry Horn

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Chris,

 

One of the things you did was also remove a speaker that was very different from the Jubs and insert one that is the same.  That probably has something to do with it.

 

Also, it is a different beast altogether from what you ever had in any loudspeaker.  It's a different presentation of sound.

 

You need to make sure you don't misinterpret "different" from "better".

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If one loudspeaker in the center makes this amount of difference, I'm now wondering what would happen if all three front loudspeakers were of the same configuration (i.e., multiple-entry K-402-based).  I suppose that I'll have to wait until I can fabricate two more units to get that answer.   Chris

 

Now you know why I have 3 SH-50's across the front. 

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You need to make sure you don't misinterpret "different" from "better".

 

Could you amplify on this?  I not sure what you're saying.

 

Chris

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Chris, do you think it was less expensive (partswise) to buy the K402 horns, and mod them then to just buy the SH-50s?

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While I haven't heard Danley's in a room myself, I know they must sound different not only from people's descriptions of it all but also from how physically different they are.  I have heard them in a couple of churches we benchmarked and I am not even sure they had Synergy horns.  I know they had they had the tapped subs.

 

All I am saying is that you are now presented with a different sound.  You say it is much better in some different ways.

 

I can appreciate that............but I think it takes time to decide if it is truly better.  At least it would take me more time.

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Thanks Mark.  I actually take that as a compliment.  To me, this project has been a bit of a "Y" in the road--just another approach or another design.  What you've said to me is that you also might feel that it has potential merit, but to be careful about opinions stated on whether or not they're better or not, because of the effect of saying that on others here.  I'm actually humbled by that. 

 

Typically, I never begin to dislike music that I once liked before (unless it was played way too much--a different issue altogether).

 

Sound reproduction systems have also been like that: at first I was impressed by systems that could pump out sound at the ends of the audible spectrum, but on the whole I've been amazed that my opinions haven't changed much, except to refine that taste to focus even more on lifelike sound rather than any artificial exaggeration of any part of the audible spectrum.

 

When I hear something that my gut tells me sounds good, it all too often remains that way. So the bottom line is: do I arrive at my opinions perhaps quicker than what is generally accepted as a "sufficient length of time to form a solid opinion"?  Maybe it's simply good practice to appear to have delayed opinion-forming as apparent forbearance.  But to my way of thinking, it doesn't say what I actually believe and feel. 

 

I've learned to listen for things that are subtle (like K-69-A compression drivers that ring like a bell at 14 kHz) and to be on guard that I don't miss something like that, or listening for bass modulation distortion that makes the bass sound more "palpable" but is actually distortion itself, sound that's not in the recordings and therefore has no place in a hi-fi setup. 

 

If you ask me what I think about the sound of a setup - I'll tell you.  I've learned that the longer that I choose to wait to report my feelings after I arrive at them, the more they are forgotten and therefore, that information is lost.  So my plan is to continue to report my feelings in log-like fashion with the way that loudspeakers, electronics, room acoustics, and the music itself sound to me.  At the end of the day--it's my true feelings--and it doesn't really change much. I'll put the burden on the reader to sort out the rest if my opinions actually do change over time. 

 

It's a good bet they won't.

Edited by Chris A
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Chris, you do a good job of keeping it real.  This is yet another home-run thread IMO.  Only heard Jubs/402 once, SH a couple times.  I'm very happy to see your expose on the approach, it's pretty cool.

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A foundry sand cast aluminum K402 with gasket and bosses for mounting the K33s would offer the stiffness desired. Before you know it a powered internal dedicated electronic crossover and amplification will be next. Three across the front and inexpensive powered surrounds,,,

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Yes, cast aluminum would be a nice material to use for a single integrated casting.  However, I can candidly say that's a bit out of my current manufacturing capabilities here.  But it certainly would have the desired material characteristics if you've got access to that sort of manufacturing capability.  You'd have to machine the throat area unless you're using an investment casting.  There are other materials that also will work that don't require access to a foundry, and machining.

 

I'm already using a "powered electronic crossover", although it's a general purpose unit.  Xilica used to market OEM crossovers for dedicated use that would be part of a powered loudspeaker approach, but I've found that most hi-fi enthusiasts want to be able to choose their own amplifiers, hence the use of general purpose loudspeaker crossovers just downstream of your preamp and just upstream of your power amplifiers.  It's the most flexible and straightforward approach, I've found.  That's what I use for each speaker in my 5.2 array, and I can tell you that has been a real strength of my setup to be able to dial in each loudspeaker after any changes are made. [bTW: I don't recommend using miniDSP, Behringer, or dbx units due to fidelity and/or SNR issues. ]

 

Surrounds are actually more critical than I believed, as recently as last year when I bi-amped and calibrated mine.  I'd go with the same configuration all the way around since I do listen to multi-channel music that uses each channel independently of the others, i.e. all 5 channels reproduce with the same fidelity and coverage angles, like THX and Dolby have advocated in the past for HTs.  Using surrounds with different coverage angles than the fronts usually results in a timbre shift, I've found.  It's pretty important to match timbres and coverage angles.  YMMV.

 

But if you wish to keep things simple, a stereo pair of these loudspeakers would work, bi-amped, situated in a listening room just like La Scalas or Cornwalls along a wall or in the corners.  That's pretty simple.

 

Chris

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Plane wave tube: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?31262-Plane-Wave-Tube-Construction

 

That's some pretty strange looking manifolding built out of three sizes of "Y" tubes.

 

Chris

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Chris,

I read through most of the Bill Waslo stuff on the DIY Sound Group forums. They don't want to go any larger than an 8 inch woofer because they say there is not enough room on the horn (maybe up to a 10 inch). I think they need to do as you did and use a larger horn and cross lower. They certainly aren't going as large as a K402. :o

 

Bruce

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The next logical step is that we'll start seeing large format horn lenses that bear resemblance to wide-band feed horns used in RF data transmission. :wink:

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Very cool Chris.

Will you be doing any experiments with phase plugs?

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Chris,

I read through most of the Bill Waslo stuff on the DIY Sound Group forums. They don't want to go any larger than an 8 inch woofer because they say there is not enough room on the horn (maybe up to a 10 inch). I think they need to do as you did and use a larger horn and cross lower. They certainly aren't going as large as a K402. :o

 

Bruce

 

Thanks for that.  I don't feel like my view on this subject is an outlier any more:  http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/283946-random-thoughts-synergy-approaches.html#post4550961.  It's interesting that no one else on the diyAudio forum saw fit to comment.

 

Chris

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Very cool Chris.

Will you be doing any experiments with phase plugs?

 

Thanks for that.  I have a great many things to do--this was the first step.  Perhaps if I understood how to use a phase plug with this type of multiple-entry horn design, I might put that on my list of things to do. 

 

Good thing that I have all the time in the world right now.  I've been listening to this horn ~12 hours/day for the past week, and it's been a real pleasure.  We just watched Beethoven's 9th on Blu-Ray and it was truly spectacular.

 

I wish you could hear it, too. Generally, my current motivation is to get the current configuration packaged so that others can enjoy it, too--at least, that's my goal. Lots to do.

 

Chris

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What you've said to me is that you also might feel that it has potential merit, but to be careful about opinions stated on whether or not they're better or not, because of the effect of saying that on others here. 

 

Yes.  I was thinking more about all the different types of music and the time it takes to listen to your favorites of different genres and be sure the new center performs well for all applications, and remains to your liking.  That takes time.

 

However, I also agree with your statement that if you don't report what you hear close to the time you actually hear it, you can forget what you heard.   :)

 

So I get it.

 

I am hoping you find this experiment is a total success.  

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The next logical step is that we'll start seeing large format horn lenses that bear resemblance to wide-band feed horns used in RF data transmission. :wink:

 

I'll leave that to your expertise right now.  :P   I'd also recommend the SynTripP design that Art Welter revealed last year.  Perhaps some of that is what Bentz is referring to.

 

There certainly is a lot of ground to explore using this type of construct (single aperture multiple-entry horns).  While I currently don't see how this can be made smaller, there is a thread going on the diyAudio forum right now that is trying out "bookshelf Synergy horns", and a foam-board example design here.  If you're not too fussy about bass modulation distortion, then the other smaller unity horn designs popping up all around are viable designs to shrink the package size down. 

 

Chris

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That takes time.
I've got that right now, and that's what I'm doing. 

 

Doing this is what I've wanted to do for a very long time (really...since before college).  It's been very cathartic vis-à-vis what I did for the last part of my prior career.  I never thought I would get the chance. Health is good and probably will stay that way for a much longer time now.  Working for the other guy was more debilitating on general health than I realized.  Doing what makes you happy--if you get the chance before hearing, eyesight, and health start to decline--is a good goal.   I figure that I've got a good shot at a couple of decades of good health left, perhaps more.

 

I plan to make the most of it.

 

Chris

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Chris,

 

I looked at my 402s last night and the approximate area you drilled the holes and mounted the woofers.  It appears the flat surface is only about 10 inches meaning the woofer is bigger than the mounting surface.........discharging into the box over the exterior top and bottom of the horn.  Is this an issue?

 

Does Danley seal his drivers to their mounting surface so they discharge only into the holes?

Yes on the mid and high frequency drivers the woofers however are not sealed in the back as you can see in the photo the midrange's are sealed  these is a SPL td-1 that I refurbished it is the early version of the SH46.

post-25539-0-27220000-1452792882_thumb.j

Edited by kg4guy

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