Wolfbane Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 One can dream and imagine, but that dream is not reality. A person cannot create from dreams, excepting that a person may take the ideas dreams create and actualize them through physical actions. If you say different ... you're dreaming So Neil Diamond was wrong when he sung 'I am... I said' and this? "Did you ever read about a frog Who dreamed of bein' a king And then became one Well except for the names And a few other changes If you talk about me The story's the same one" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Yes. Neil Diamond is always wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Cogito ergo sum. Yep. Cogito ergo mundus talis est is a corollary. You're 100% coconuts to doubt it. If any of the ancients are to be believed, being 100% sure of anything means you are wrong. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) Mark Twain said the same thing if you look at Mungkiman's post. But don't misquote Descartes. Call a corollary a corollary from the start. Personally I don't think Descartes ever meant the corollary or even thought it. Edited February 6, 2016 by oldtimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 7, 2016 Author Share Posted February 7, 2016 Except for those who don't believe there is a reality independent of the mind. Well, that's at least me. Not sure you understand it. Main point of the final is that there is NO reality independent of the mind. Goes back to Descartes, "cogito ergo mundus talis est." Barrow and Tipler: "Observers are necessary to bring the Universe into being." Dave What I read of B&T is that the conditions of the universe are necessarily those that can be comprehended by "life". And, it appears that they certainly view human life as objects within a real universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 And you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 7, 2016 Author Share Posted February 7, 2016 Except for those who don't believe there is a reality independent of the mind. Well, that's at least me. Not sure you understand it. Main point of the final is that there is NO reality independent of the mind. Goes back to Descartes, "cogito ergo mundus talis est." Barrow and Tipler: "Observers are necessary to bring the Universe into being." Dave Descartes? He is intuiting his EXISTENCE. And, it is well within some universe. In short, it would be the opposite proposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 7, 2016 Author Share Posted February 7, 2016 And you don't. Of course not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 And you don't. Of course not. If all our minds died in the next minute, would not the mockingbird in my yard sing in the morning? Would the cats still not scratch the bald cypress trunks and the squirrels not find the acorns? What arrogance do you subscribe to that says the universe only exists because we think it does? The anthropic cosmological principle people are bad enough, but that is a magnitude of order worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 7, 2016 Author Share Posted February 7, 2016 And you don't. Of course not. If all our minds died in the next minute, would not the mockingbird in my yard sing in the morning? No. How could he sing, when he is not an independent object? Would the cats still not scratch the bald cypress trunks and the squirrels not find the acorns? No. What arrogance do you subscribe to that says the universe only exists because we think it does? The anthropic cosmological principle people are bad enough, but that is a magnitude of order worse. Why would arrogance favor one position or another? We ARE the universe looking back on itself. Playing hide and seek. Our minds are just the universe expressing it's energy. The mocking bird and the tree and the human are just lumps in a fabric of energy. I would think "arrogance" might apply to those who imagine they are unique and separate objects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 (edited) Well it seems we are at a stand off then. OK Lyrics war! (in lieu of food fight) Edited February 7, 2016 by oldtimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Yesterday a morning came, a smile upon your faceCaesars Palace, morning glory, silly human raceOn a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any placeIf the summer change to winter, yours is no disgrace Battleships confide in me and tell me where you areShining, flying, purple wolfhound, show me where you areLost in summer, morning winter, travel very farLost in musing circumstances, that's just where you are Yesterday a morning came, a smile upon your faceCaesars Palace, morning glory, silly human, silly human raceOn a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any placeIf the summer change to winter, yours is noYours is no disgrace, yours is no disgrace, yours is no disgrace Death defying, mutilated armies scatter the earthCrawling out of dirty holes, their morals, their morals disappear, yeah Yesterday a morning came, a smile upon your faceCaesars Palace, morning glory, silly human, silly human, silly human raceOn a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any placeIf the summer change to winter, yours is noYours is no disgrace, yours is no disgrace, yours is no disgrace Battleships confide in me and tell me where you areShining, flying, purple wolfhound, show me where you areLost in summer, morning winter, travel very farLost in musing circumstances, that's just where you are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Cogito ergo sum. Cogito sum ergo sum cogito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Where is that somewhere when you are on LSD or DMT? When you're on acid you're tripping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Descartes? He is intuiting his EXISTENCE. And, it is well within some universe. In short, it would be the opposite proposition. Wasn't referring to Descartes particularly. Might have been any number of similar thoughts on the situation. Actually, he was rather late to the party. Dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woofers and Tweeters Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Today, Mark on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. That we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather. Third Eye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Cogito ergo sum. Cogito sum ergo sum cogito Bierce, or Carlin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted February 7, 2016 Author Share Posted February 7, 2016 Where is that somewhere when you are on LSD or DMT?When you're on acid you're tripping. Yes, tripping into another dimension out of the limit less dimensions possible. The mind creates all these worlds. Imagine the mind of a schizophrenic. Which ever state you are in, you could never be convinced there are others.Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Man cannot, by force of will alone, create something by simply imagining it to be. Man can, by knowledge and logic, discover the nature of what has been created. This is a real world, the reality of which we may understand if our perception of that reality reflects the nature of that reality. We exist within a four dimension space-time continuum that is part of a 10 dimension universe. We can see and experience only the four dimensions in which we exist and we cannot see the others, which likely create the four dimension continuum that is the visible universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 This is a real world, Prove that and you'll have a primary place in history. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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