How much power is safe for Khorns?

[twistedcrankcammer]

I found this.   What do you guys think of this one?   http://www.parts-express.com/behringer-dcx2496-ultradrive-pro-digital-24-bit-96-khz-loudspeaker-management-system-cros--248-669

 

CHRIS, PLEASE RECOMMEND SOME AMPS!

I wish I could afford some used nelson pass stuff from Reno Hi Fi.  But that means even at used prices over $5,000 for two amps. 

 

What about the Nelson AMP CAMP AMP i was reading about in DIY?

 

It make so much sense to separate energy when it is at a low level, then distribute it to amplifiers.

It is Illogical to pump power into yet another device that must separate and also deal with power and its attendant, capacitance, inductance and impedance issues.   

 

I can not thank everyone enough for the advise. I will be calling Kevin today after 5:30.  I want to go listen as soon as possible. Thank you Rodger!!!

 

 

CHRIS... Please recommend amps.

The way I think I am beginning to understand is this: PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG!

 

With Bi-amp you have an amp for low and and amp for high.  Each amp with left and right out puts. 4 points of connection to speakers.

 

With tri-amp, you have an amp for low, an amp for mid, and an amp for high and there for 6 points of connection.

 

IS THIS CORRECT?

 

 

Dave,

 

The answer to your last question is yes / Correct!

 

I just left a message on Kevs voice mail to give me a call back. I should hear from him when he gets enough lead time built up to call between patients.

 

Roger

[Chris A]

I wouldn't recommend Behringer, miniDSP, or the lowest cost dbx Driverack units.  The MiniDSPs apparently have dynamic range/noise issues, and the other two brands have analog electronics fidelity issues.  I'd look for used units that are much more hi-fi--like Yamaha, Ashly, ElectroVoice, and Xilica.  Usually these units have product names that include a "2" followed by a "6" -- indicating 2 input channels (stereo), and 6 output channels (as in tri-amped stereo). 

 

Amplifier choices are difficult to recommend, simply because there are so many choices out there and it tends to be a personal taste question.  I'm okay with used Crown D-75As, but you might like a different sound.  In general, the fewer the number of power transistor stages, the cleaner the sound.  That's why so many people usually like tube amplifiers, but there are used stereo FET amplifiers from Reno (First Watt) that cost much less.  I use an f3, and I don't believe that I'm going to give it up anytime soon.  The only issue with tube amplifiers is the required maintenance and the problem of heating the room (class "A" operation). 

 

There are also very good solid state amplifiers of the bipolar transistor type, i.e., a regular SS amplifier.  If I were in your shoes and didn't already have an opinion, I'd go for something less expensive for the time being, since you'll likely be overwhelmed with the sound of tri-amping itself without worrying about the exact amplifier used.  That's why I've chosen used Crown D-75As, first recommended by Mark Deneen on this forum. They're very solid Class AB amplifiers that are also very inexpensive and operate mostly in class "A" mode at the power required for driving horn-loaded drivers, however, they also have a turn-off "thump" that a lot of people seem to dislike, and their top ends aren't as "tinkly" as the First Watt amplifier.  I only use the single First Watt F3 on my bi-amped Jubilee HF compression drivers, i.e., midrange + tweeter frequencies all in one driver.

 

I've also heard very good things about ICEpower and other quality class D amplifiers which are also very low cost relative to new tube amplifiers and FET type.  Your choice, really.  Perhaps others will chime in on their choices in this area.  Remember, however, that you don't need high power, and that you'll still need 6 channels, so be careful of expensive amplifiers draining your budget.

 

Chris

Edited February 15, 2016 by Chris A

[babadono]

2. If one were to connect a pair of 600 watt mono blocks ( in search of that holy grail of ultimate sound) , would that give more headroom than a 200W amp?

 Yes 4.77dB of headroom.

[babadono]

As long as the 600w mono blocks were not turned up to far, would it be safe to use on Khorns?

Yes.

[babadono]

My thinking is during peak passages where the mid and tweeter were needing 5~10 watts ( to reproduce their frequency range) ..... the Tympani hit would need 100 ~ 200 watts for that brief split second to reproduce the music faithfully.

 Ah if only recordings were faithful to the live performance.. unfortunately they are usually compressed.

[russ69]

I have a number of power amps from 25 watt mono-blocks to a 400wpc Big Mac. With horn speakers the 25 watt amps are completely satisfying, maybe even my favorites (Quicksilver mini-mites). My Big Mac is an overweight pig of an amp that I use with very inefficient loudspeakers, it very seldom uses more than 40 watts, probably closer to 10 watts average. 

[2Bmusic]

 

As long as the 600w mono blocks were not turned up to far, would it be safe to use on Khorns?

Yes.

 

 

Would the XPA-1 mono block ( 600 wpc)  sound better than the 300wpc  xpa-2 gen 2

 

i can tell you this first hand. With a Stealth dc-1 > XPA-2 > khorns,  and the usb connect to my mac book pro with 15 foot usb cable, and the pause button pressed on iTunes, i can turn the amp all the way up and you can put your ear to the min and high and HEAR NOTHING!!!!!!   I think that is pretty good!

 

What do y'all think?

Edited February 15, 2016 by 2Bmusic

[Max2]

Headroom means nothing if the first 2/10ths of a watt has an undetailed and compressed sound from overly extended, high db input stages and Chinese or cheaper "cost saving" components.   Very few amps out there are going to deliver a clean sound with that much power.   You want that much juice and SQ, look at McIntosh monos or Ice offerings.  Having said that, I would listen to everyone here. You don't need that much power and if you go that route, buy quality, not cost saving crap. Big mid horns are unforgiving, crap in, crap out.

[WMcD]

Here is the Dope from Hope by Don Keele. A hero of mine and highly respected in the industry.

https://community.klipsch.com/dope/Dope_770100_v16n1.pdf

When he says "To Dang Loud" he is not kidding.

This is based on me putting 0.282 volts sine into my home made units in a garage at about 1000 Hz some years ago. That is 20 dB down from 103 dB or about 83 dB. I thought that was loud to very loud.

I know there is peak to average thing going on. But still, 123 dB is not enjoyable I'd think.

There is also a DfH by Paul. Pretty much the same. He does speak of short transients and tweeters.

https://community.klipsch.com/dope/Dope_740500_v14n2.pdf

WMcD

[Mallette]

My, my, my.  Most everything said here is quite true.  But I can also say that K'horn fed top quality source material amplified with a pocket change Class T amp will beat the crap out of anything you've ever heard.  The next 1 percent is incremental. 

 

Dave

[2Bmusic]

russ69.

at the quicksilver site i see they offer an amp for horns.  DID YOU try those?  HAS ANYONE ELSE tried those?

 

again, please understand. I asked about the 600w mono-blocks for three reasons. I understand full well that our beloved klipsch are super efficient. For those of you unaware, i owned lascalas and A&S big ben. I performed up grades.  Yes mid and high sounded great.  Bass woeful.  I do now have a pair of khorns.  With my 125 watt yamaha HT aventage 1030 the khorns are beyond incredible!

 

 

     ***   three reasons ***

1. providing the wattage for bass, tympani hits etc.

2. They have very good specs. Yes I know the truth is in the listening and therefore  reason 3>

....3.   emotiva offer trial and return if you do not like.

 

ok well 4 reasons...  i have heard so much about mono blocks .....

 

 

there fore i am relying on you my friends here to offer some ideas.  Thus far some really good and much appreciated info.  Please continue... the discussion is amps for k horns and bi and and tri amp possibilities. 

 

BTW, I live less than 25 miles from the largest collection of Klipsch speakers other than hope. I have been in communication with him.  I will be going to his fortress of sound to listen very soon. He told me that stock k horns sound great. I agree!

Edited February 16, 2016 by 2Bmusic

[Chris A]

I don't believe the OP is talking about those kind of extremely high SPLs but rather the effects of having more power at lower levels in order to offset the effects of moving mass (and its analog electromagnetic losses), i.e., having more available force and force bandwidth. 

 

That's the reason why the discussion turned to tri-amping and identification of preferred amplifiers for Khorn tri-amping.

 

Chris

[Max2]

russ69.

at the quicksilver site i see they offer an amp for horns.  DID YOU try those?  HAS ANYONE ELSE tried those?

 

again, please understand. I asked about the 600w mono-blocks for three reasons. I understand full well that our beloved klipsch are super efficient. For those of you unaware, i owned lascalas and A&S big ben. I performed up grades.  Yes mid and high sounded great.  Bass woeful.  I do now have a pair of khorns.  With my 125 watt yamaha HT aventage 1030 the khorns are beyond incredible!

 

 

     ***   three reasons ***

1. providing the wattage for bass, tympani hits etc.

2. They have very good specs. Yes I know the truth is in the listening and therefore  reason 3>

....3.   emotiva offer trial and return if you do not like.

 

ok well 4 reasons...  i have heard so much about mono blocks .....

 

 

there fore i am relying on you my friends here to offer some ideas.  Thus far some really good and much appreciated info.  Please continue... the discussion is amps for k horns and bi and and tri amp possibilities. 

 

BTW, I live less than 25 miles from the largest collection of Klipsch speakers other than hope. I have been in communication with him.  I will be going to his fortress of sound to listen very soon. He told me that stock k horns sound great. I agree!

 

 

You should look at Outlaw amps.   American built with quality components and priced right.  They will trounce the Chinese competitors.

 

Oops, no monos offered. Nevermind

Edited February 16, 2016 by Max2

[derrickdj1]

From reading this thread and personal knowledge, 600 watt mono blocks are not needed or recommended.  The speakers will never see that many watts unless someone carelessly turns the gain all the way up.  Many members use low watt tube amps with Khorns.  A SS amp will also work.  Which amp, personal choice and many to choose from.

[robert_kc]

How large is your listening room?

 

What kind of music? 

 

How loud do you typically listen to music?

 

What is your goal for the system?   Is your goal to reproduce the natural timbre of orchestral instruments at reasonable sound levels in an average size room?   For a string quartet?  For Mahler’s Symphony No. 2?  Achieve a “mid-hall” perspective for an orchestra?   Or put a “heavy metal” band in your living room?  Achieve sound reproduction that is so natural sounding that you’re drawn into the music?  Or “rattle the windows”, with the ability to recreate an earthquake scene in a movie, or a buffalo stampede?

 

On one hand I’m skeptical about the benefit of huge amounts of power tri-amping high efficiency speakers in the average living room.   (Let alone huge commercial speakers that were designed for a movie theater or auditorium.)  Like others have commented, my 8wpc SET tube amp can drive my stock Klipsch RF-7s (which are less efficient that Klipschorns) to satisfying volume levels and dynamics, and sufficiently deep bass.   All of my push/pull tube amps (7189, 7591, 6L6GC, KT66, EL34, KT88) have ample power for my Klipsch Palladium and my RF-7s.   And all but the SET and 7189 amps will drive my Snell Type CV speakers to satisfying volume levels. 

 

On the other hand, I’d love to hear the “big boy” Klipsch (e.g., Jubilee).   I’m curious if there is any benefit to using large commercial speakers when listening to classical music in an average size room (and employing bi-amping or tri-amping and huge amounts of power) – vs. a tube amp driving the built-in crossovers in Klipsch’s consumer products (like La Scala or Palladium).  Are the benefits only relevant to creating a “wow factor” when “cranking it up” for a few seconds to show off your system to your friends – vs. sitting down to listen to music for a few hours?   I’d appreciate hearing from those with experience.

Edited February 17, 2016 by robert_kc

[garyrc]

It will take as much power as a reasonably sane man can stay in a room with in the average sized house and not destroy your hearing. I have left concerts in the 70's using Altec Voice of the Theater speakers which are rated for like 35 watts with my ears ringing for days afterwards. My kids blew my tweeters years ago turning the speakers up where they could hear them outside while they were washing their cars. I will not call my sons idiots for doing this because the speakers were not theirs.  

 

From ASHA website. 

 

Painful

 

120 dB = jet plane takeoff, siren

 

This is the sound level of your Khorn speakers or thereabouts. I am too lazy to search the precise level this morning. 

 

120 dB is probably the MAXIMUM PEAK sound level of Khorns.  These peaks are extremely brief.   Short of extremely loud sounds, like gunfire close up, the effect of Sound Pressure Level on hearing depends on both  SPL and duration.  A jet plane takeoff is fairly steady for several seconds, which is why airport crews wear ear protection.  Sustained sound at 120 dB would blow out Khorns fast.  Most people with Khorns run them so that loud passages are between 90 and 100 dB, possibly with very brief peaks (too brief to register on analog needle SPL meters) as high as 115 dB.  Those brief peaks might demand 63 watts from a single Khorn in a 3,000 cu. ft. room (see Dope from Hope Vol. 16, no1, January 1977). 

[Chris A]

On the other hand, I’d love to hear the “big boy” Klipsch (e.g., Jubilee). I’m curious if there is any benefit to using large commercial speakers when listening to classical music in an average size room (and employing bi-amping or tri-amping and huge amounts of power) – vs. a tube amp driving the built-in crossovers in Klipsch’s consumer products (like La Scala or Palladium). Are the benefits relevant to creating a “wow factor” when “cranking it up” for a few seconds to show off your system to your friends – vs. sitting down to listen to music for a few hours? I’d appreciate hearing from those with experience.

 

I wouldn't use passive crossovers: it's not close when used with horn-loaded loudspeakers using quality digital crossovers to cross over, correct time delay/phase, and perform EQ--things that would be prohibitive (if they were even possible) if trying to use passive crossovers.

 

You need to hear them. 

 

Chris

Edited February 16, 2016 by Chris A

[WMcD]

It will take as much power as a reasonably sane man can stay in a room with in the average sized house and not destroy your hearing. I have left concerts in the 70's using Altec Voice of the Theater speakers which are rated for like 35 watts with my ears ringing for days afterwards. My kids blew my tweeters years ago turning the speakers up where they could hear them outside while they were washing their cars. I will not call my sons idiots for doing this because the speakers were not theirs.  

 

From ASHA website. 

 

Painful[/size]

 

120 dB = jet plane takeoff, siren[/size]

 

This is the sound level of your Khorn speakers or thereabouts. I am too lazy to search the precise level this morning. [/size]

 

120 dB is probably the MAXIMUM PEAK sound level of Khorns.  These peaks are extremely brief.   Short of extremely loud sounds, like gunfire close up, the effect of Sound Pressure Level on hearing depends on both  SPL and duration.  A jet plane takeoff is fairly steady for several seconds, which is why airport crews wear ear protection.  Sustained sound at 120 dB would blow out Khorns fast.  Most people with Khorns run them so that loud passages are between 90 and 100 dB, possibly with very brief peaks (too brief to register on analog needle SPL meters) as high as 115 dB.  Those brief peaks might demand 63 watts from a single Khorn in a 3,000 cu. ft. room (see Dope from Hope Vol. 16, no1, January 1977).

That Vol. 16, No.1 is the first link in my post above. It is very much worth reading.

WMcD

Edited February 17, 2016 by WMcD

[J M O N]

How much power is safe for Khorns?  More than what is safe for your ears.

 

Bottom line, you don't need 600 watts for Khorns -- nowhere close to that.  If you weren't happy with the bass of the La Scalas, it wasn't because you didn't have enough power.  La Scalas do not go very low due to the size of the bass horn. Klipshorns will go lower as you have heard.

 

With that said, quality is more important that quantitity as others have said here.  The best amplifier sound to my ears is with tube amplifiers.  If high volume isn't a requirement, you may want to look into Single Ended Triode (SET) amps.  They are low power, but they can make magic within their limitations.  I've used 3.5 watt SET amps with Khorns and they went plenty loud for 98% of my listening.  Those remaining 2% were mostly for having fun to see just what Khorns can do when unleashed.  With the 3.5 watt amps, I could go outsede my house with doors and windows closed and still hear the music from the street.  You'd be surprised what 3.5 watts will do with Khorns.  And the sound of a tube amp, you won't find any solid state amp that can make music quite the same way.  Go take a look at the tube amp section of this forum.

[mustang guy]

I've heard it said that the McIntosh MC275 amp can make a pair of Klipschorns sing pretty well. It aint cheap, but it sure would be simpler and probably sound as good as anything else you would try.