402 Price?

[Islander]

So have your 402s arrived yet?

[Chris A]

If one was bi-amping a 402/la scala set up, how would you integrate a XO...either digital or passive?

 

Two stereo amplifiers direct coupled to their loudspeaker drivers (bypassing the passives), with a digital crossover feeding the stereo amplifiers, and your preamp feeding the digital crossover. Your choice of amplifiers, the better one driving the K-402 HF driver. Passive crossovers that do the EQ properly would be very expensive and time consuming (see rigma's crossovers), and you'll have to move the K-402 back away from the front of the La Scala bass bin in order to time align it.

 

Is there a DAC in there somewhere?

 

There are DACs in the digital crossover to complement its front-end ADCs...and DACs in either the source or in the preamplifier front end.  I use a preamplifier with built-in DACs and use digital buses (mostly HDMI) feeding its inputs from the various sources. 

 

This avoids using analog input cables which I've found are susceptible to common mode (AC) noise and mismatches in maximum levels at analog preamplifier inputs.  Digital signal buses are worth having since there is neither noise nor distortion that can creep in.

 

Chris

[HPower]

Sorry, I left out my DAC...

 

Mac Mini server, with John Kenny Ciúnas DAC> Triode Lab 2A3 Integrated amp> Style C Cornscalas with ALK Universal Cornscala-Wall Xovers, B&C DE85TNs.

 

http://www.johnkenny.biz/ciunas-dac

[jwc]

 

What drivers on the horns? 

 

What bass bin?

 

Roy never made available EQ settings for the 510 and 402 together.  Mark1101 and I have  done our own make shift settings....with that setup.

 

Well...

It has been of a bit of a yard sale approach since coming across these local 402s that I happened across.

I don't have a real plan, more of a dream at this point.

Unfortunately the dream is fuelled by a beer budget vs. champagne budget. 

 

My current set up is… as per post #45.

Mac Mini server> Triode Lab 2A3 Integrated amp> Style C Cornscalas with ALK Universal Cornscala-Wall Xovers, B&C DE85TNs.

 

When I decided to grab the 402s that I was asking about here, I decided to push some needed $ at Jordan for the Faiatal HF-200 (16ohm) that he had listed.

In talking with Mark (1101) I also ordered a pair of 510s with the suggestion that 3way might be worth exploring in a Jub set up.

 

My integrated amp (which I am LOVING) and my current limited budget will necessitate me going passive for the time being and I will try to use my Cornscalas

for bass duties until I can either find a beater pair of La Scalas (JubScalas) or better yet build a pair of Jub bass bins.

 

Another option if the Jub bins look too much for my building abilities might be to build a pair of DBBs… ?

 

When all these "yardsale" components arrive, for giggles I am going to plug then into my CSs by blocking off the CS mid and tweet and then place the

402/510...B&C 85s/HF-200 atop the Cornscalas, feeding them signal from the ALK Universal Cornscala-Wall Xovers.

 

Not sure what will happen...

 

FYI,

 

If you decide to put the Fiatals on the K402's, Bob Crites already has a jubilee passive with that driver and horn.  I set a guy up here locally with that passive.

 

If you invest in some RTA software, you have all kinds of possibilities.  Mark1101 can dial in a driver in his setup in a jiffy.

[HPower]

Thanks jwc!

 

As you can see, I have jumped into this without really thinking things through and decided on an exact plan.

My heart kind of lit up when I came across the pair of 402, and I have yet to let my mind catch up.

 

I should have the 402s home next week and try to figure out what might be a good fit "physically" into my

basement listening room.

 

That room is approx. 14.5' x 20' x 7'-4".

I have run speakers on both the long wall and short wall, I currently have my Cornscalas on the short wall as in previous pic.

 

 

If I was to go with a Jub bass and 3way with the 510/402, my room height may be awkward with that stack.

 

If I was to go with single MWMs (2 or 4), I would do better in the height department but I am not sure if my 14.5' wide room (assuming short wall placement)

would accommodate the almost 70" MWMs.

 

Claude's Quater Pie could be an option, but from what I have read, they will not play as low as Jub or MWM?

Plus I am not sure if there is a passive for the Pie with my new horns and drivers?

[The Dude]

I have jumped into this without really thinking things through and decided on an exact plan.

 

Its like cutting the top off of a Lascala, you can't think about or you'll never do it.  Just jump in and get after it, in the end it will all be worth it.

[jwc]

So it sounds like you are going no sub.  

 

Is your interest to stay with a setup with passive and stereo amp?  Or are you considering some active solution.?

[HPower]

So it sounds like you are going no sub.  

 

Is your interest to stay with a setup with passive and stereo amp?  Or are you considering some active solution.?

 

For the immediate future I would like to go passive, mainly because of the Integrated amplifier (2A3 SET @ 4-5wpc).

This amp is very special sounding, but would limit me being able to connect a DX38 or SP2060 and additional amplifiers.

 

Active is something I might consider in the future, but for now would like to stick with my new 2A3.

After doing a little research, it seems a 3way passive Xover would be more complex than a 2way passive and obviously more cash?

 

For my music only listening room, I am satisfied with the bass my Cornscalas produce and really doubt I would want or need a sub.

I do have a recently built F-20 in the TV room which is being driven by a Crown XLS-1500, but would be happy to leave it with the HT.

[Chris A]

I wouldn't put an additional HF horn and tweeter on top--I don't like the degradation in imaging that comes with the off-axis nulls that occur when two horns are playing more than 1/4 wavelength apart in their crossover region - especially in our most sensitive hearing band--2-5kHz, and without time alignment of horns/drivers.  It probably will sound very little different than a Khorn by using a K-510/K-402/horn-loaded bass bin three-way with simple passives and without alignment.

 

A simple passive crossover will suffice if you've got a good EQ unit.  If you don't already have one, I recommend a digital parametric equalizer. That way, you'll experience much less SQ degradation that you typically get with analog units.  You're not paying in sound quality for filters that you're not using in-room with a parametric digital unit.

 

Chris

Edited April 1, 2016 by Chris A

[Marvel]

A simple passive crossover will suffice if you've got a good EQ unit. If you don't already have one, I recommend a digital parametric equalizer. That way, you'll experience much less SQ degradation that you typically get with analog units. You're not paying for filters that you're not using in-room. Chris

 

I don't know the SET he has, but being an integrated, I don't know that he could put the digital parametric eq in the signal chain.

 

mainly because of the Integrated amplifier (2A3 SET @ 4-5wpc).

 

Is that a push-pull 2A3 amp or are you using some KR Audio 2A3 tubes to get that high an output?

 

Are your Cornscalas a single cabinet or are the tops removable? Either way, you should have room to put aK402 on top. I agree with going two way and skipping the tweeter since they would be so far apart.

 

Bruce

[HPower]

My amplifier, is a Triode Lab Integrated.

http://www.triodelab.com/2a3-integrate/

 

With some of the options I had added, my amp is somewhere between the "S" model and their "FFX" model.

It is Single Ended and puts out 4-5wpc.

 

The way my amp is configured right now, I do not have a "tape loop" to drop an EQ unit into but will need to speak to

Triode Lab to see if there is anything they can do for a work around.

Triode Lab is local to me in the Toronto area and Frank, the owner only lives about 20 minutes from me, is very open to taylor

his amplifiers to his customers likes and needs.

[jwc]

I know everyone here won't agree with me....and I apologize in advance....

With that system and hearing your intentions "initially", I would consider the Fiatal with the K402 on top of something (bass bin). Put the 510's on the shelf for a sec.

Bob Crites isn't going to post his opinion here....but with this situation, I would bet he would be a great resource.

There is a guy here locally that doesn't know ANYTHING about this kinda stuff and I set him up with a K402/Fiatal with Bob Crites Jubilee Passive. The HF driver is attenuated with an L-pad. Stereo vintage carver amp. I don't want to go into the bass bin..... The guy is super excited of the results.

I would call BOB and inquire of options with the K402/Fiatal top hat.

jc

Edited April 1, 2016 by jwc

[mark1101]

I wouldn't put an additional HF horn and tweeter on top--I don't like the degradation in imaging that comes with the off-axis nulls that occur when two horns are playing more than 1/4 wavelength apart in their crossover region - especially in our most sensitive hearing band--2-5kHz, and without time alignment of horns/drivers.  It probably will sound very little different than a Khorn by using a K-510/K-402/horn-loaded bass bin three-way with simple passives and without alignment.

 

A simple passive crossover will suffice if you've got a good EQ unit.  If you don't already have one, I recommend a digital parametric equalizer. That way, you'll experience much less SQ degradation that you typically get with analog units.  You're not paying in sound quality for filters that you're not using in-room with a parametric digital unit.

 

Chris

 

How did you ever listen to music before time alignment? Pure analog without is still pretty darn good if done well.

[Chris A]

How did you ever listen to music before time alignment?

 

 

Just like you - I guess that I "got used to it"--like all the other loudspeakers that I owned before the Jubs, until I developed enough dissatisfaction that I moved on to some thing else seeking a better presentation of reproduced music. 

 

Once you hear the improvement getting everything within 1/4 wavelength in x, y, z axes (such as the New Center), everyone that I've demonstrated this to doesn't want to go backwards after hearing the difference.

 

I know that when I dialed the delays to zero with the tri-amped center Belle or JuBelle, the sound was so terrible in terms of timbre mismatch with the Jubs on either side that I wanted to turn the center off completely.  Even a very small amount of delay mismatch (about 25 microseconds) on the tweeter was pretty attention-getting.

 

You should try it yourself - just get yourself something triamped and time-aligned, like a Belle or La Scala between your two stacks, play a sine tone at the center crossover frequency between the tweeter and midrange, then dial the delay on the tweeter off 25-50 us.  It isn't subtle: it nearly drove me out of the room..."no kidding".  I was astounded at how sensitive the delay settings are to timbre matching.

 

Chris

Edited April 1, 2016 by Chris A

[mark1101]

Chris,

 

ALK ESNs makes most of the issues you mention go away.

[Chris A]

...For $1500+...and it doesn't work as well, as reusably, and as flexibly as a good digital crossover?  That's a peculiar choice.  It doesn't make much sense.

 

Crossovers may be implemented either as passive RLC networks, as active filters with operational amplifier circuits or with DSP engines and software.

 

The only excuse for passive crossovers is their low cost. Their behavior changes with the signal level dependent dynamics of the drivers. They block the power amplifier from taking maximum control over the voice coil motion. They are a waste of time, if accuracy of reproduction is the goal.

 

Siegfried Linkwitz - October 2009

Edited April 2, 2016 by Chris A

[mark1101]

Honestly, you and I think backwards from one another sometimes.  It makes BEST sense to keep the system analog if most is analog.  Why introduce 1 digital processing unit into a purposeful built analog setup?

 

Once of the cool things I did was create both.  You know my MCM is a pure digital multi-amp digitally processed actively crossed, EQ'd and time aligned setup.  So of course I understand where you come from.

 

I have 2 other pure analog setups that I highly value and use these other techniques.

 

The outboard EQ with ALK ESNs is very worthy of mention here as it allows others with passive setups a way to understand and get into the bigger Klipsch horns at lower cost and still realize a huge sound improvement.

 

I did spend around $1500 for my ESNs but I built them 8 years ago and have continued to use them and reuse them in other setups.  They are a valued piece of gear for me since I continually change things up and tend to sift the gear inventory.  The best stays.

[Chris A]

Could I say "anti-digital bias" and be close...?

 

Yes, I do believe that we're 180 degrees out of phase on this subject.

 

Chris

Edited April 3, 2016 by Chris A

[HPower]

Holy horns, Batman...

 

 

 

Now what the   am I going to do...

[Schu]

Why are they pointed at the ceiling?