402 Price?

[jwc]

The setup that Mark is talking about.....I've heard several times at his house and have done many configurations at my house. I heard Roy do it at Hope. I've had 402s , 510s 5 different drivers, jubilee, dbbs and an assortment of other bass bins. Also had active digital dbx and the EVDx38.

If you buy Klipsch Pro Cinema non surrounds....there is no Passive for non behind the screen.

Roy graciously has made available appropriate delay, xo points and EQ for certain end user configurations. This is limited to a few drivers with the K510 or K402 horn on a few different bass bins. This is a snap with an active digital processor.

However, when not doing the exact driver/horn/bass bin as Roy has provided to us....you are on you own. I will extend my vote of confidence that exploring the appropriate passive with an outboard analog EQ...whether graphic or parametric will work just fine.

[jwc]

Also, If I were to buy a K402 with a driver installed on the horn with the stand available.....and I wasn't gonna do a Roy tested home setup combination.....I would request a B&C driver on the horn.

[Chris A]

That's a good recommendation on the B&C, such as the DE750.  That's a pretty good driver--and it sounds a lot better.

[Fjd]

Not to complicate the discussion but you DO NOT need a digital processor/active crossover to use the 510 and 402 horns.

 

I have the system in my avatar running the very complicated dual digital processors/crossovers setup and 5 amplifiers........Excellent in all regards.  Love it.  Uses 402 and 510 horns.

 

I also have a PURE ANALOG system on the other side of the room with passive crossovers and tube preamp and amps using 402 and 510 horns as well.  The ONE THING YOU MUST HAVE in this setup is an EQ.  I use a DBX analog graphical EQ that can take care of EQing the 402/510 setup just fine (used on the tape monitor loop of the preamp).

 

Roy Delgado tested this exact setup for many of us to hear in Hope.  It works and it is easy to use.  Saves a lot of money on processors and multiple amplifiers.  It also saves money on your passive crossovers because there IS NO EQ IN THE CROSSOVER.  You set the EQ yourself.

 

I highly recommend this FIRST for those interested in the 402 and 510 horns but not yet experienced in active crossovers.

 

My source equipment feeds both of these systems I mentioned so I can easily A/B test between them and while they do not sound exactly the same, it is hard to tell the top ends apart.  Using a microphone and RTA the curves are virtually identical.  In fact I used the curves from my big MCM setup to adjust the EQ on the analog system.......until they were the same.  Simple to do.  20 minute job with an RTA.  This setup WORKS GREAT.

 

JWC has been over and listened to this many times.  Perhaps he will comment if he sees this.  I would put this setup up against anything in a room and I'm sure it would do just fine.

 

 

I don’t remember the model number, but I think I’ve read where your model DBX is one of the 1/3-octave models of equalizer that they sell where the center frequency of its filters are spaced one third of an octave apart, or three filters to an octave. 

 

The 1/3-octave equalizers on the market today are really nice and, I know this is oversimplification, but somewhat like having 30 separate “volume controls” per channel to adjust the amplitude of very specific audio frequencies.

 

Last year I was looking for a nicer 1/3-octave equalizer and I was surprised how many hit the used market regularly and at decent prices.  Of course there is additional risk buying used vs. buying new; however, with a little patience and research it isn’t too hard to find a nice deal on used equipment if someone doesn’t want to buy new.

 

Here is the general list of my focused searches and where the majority of the selling prices seemed to end up.  Of course, there are outliers to the ranges and with a little patience and time, it can be fairly easy to find a nice example below the range I listed. I found a very nice Klark Teknik DN360 with the factory installed balanced transformers for $229 shipped.

 

 

 

 

XTA GQ600

List: ~ $1,575

Used: ~ $300 - $450

 

 

 

 

 

 

Klark Teknik DN360

List: ~ $1,299

Used: ~ $250 - $400

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ashly GQX-3102

List: ~ $620

Used: ~ $150 - $300

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Fjd

[Schu]

Do those things impart a "sound" to the signal?

[Fjd]

These horns would suffice for a bookshelf-sized multiple entry horn design, sort of like this one but with an updated and better horn for purpose: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/285030-bookshelf-multi-way-point-source-horn.html

 

 

I had been following the little synergy horn builds for his car that Patrick Bateman was making and documenting on various forums; however, I see that xrk971 has now started several very interesting threads.  I like how he started with the Faital Pro LTH142 waveguide and is incorporating the use of 3d printing with the woofer to waveguide adapter and 3d printing for the woofer chamber volume reducer plug.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The other that I found interesting was his take on the “tractrix-synergy” horn that he calls the “Trynergy” at this thread below.   It might not be a perfect fit in the stock Klipschorn top hat; however, for the group that enjoy the traditional tractrix curve, it sure seems to solve the problem of finding a 1” throat compression driver from needing to go down to 400 Hz.  I keep eying the old pair of Martinelli/ALK trachorns I have and thinking I need to find access to some woodworking tools.

 

 

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/261427-presenting-trynergy-full-range-tractrix-synergy.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Fjd

[Marvel]

It looks like this has a really crude routing job for the ports on the horn...

 

Bruce

Edited March 24, 2016 by Marvel

[jason str]

It looks like this has a really crude routing job for the ports on the horn...

 

Bruce

 

Nothing wrong with using cardboard either.

[mark1101]

 

Not to complicate the discussion but you DO NOT need a digital processor/active crossover to use the 510 and 402 horns.

 

I have the system in my avatar running the very complicated dual digital processors/crossovers setup and 5 amplifiers........Excellent in all regards.  Love it.  Uses 402 and 510 horns.

 

I also have a PURE ANALOG system on the other side of the room with passive crossovers and tube preamp and amps using 402 and 510 horns as well.  The ONE THING YOU MUST HAVE in this setup is an EQ.  I use a DBX analog graphical EQ that can take care of EQing the 402/510 setup just fine (used on the tape monitor loop of the preamp).

 

Roy Delgado tested this exact setup for many of us to hear in Hope.  It works and it is easy to use.  Saves a lot of money on processors and multiple amplifiers.  It also saves money on your passive crossovers because there IS NO EQ IN THE CROSSOVER.  You set the EQ yourself.

 

I highly recommend this FIRST for those interested in the 402 and 510 horns but not yet experienced in active crossovers.

 

My source equipment feeds both of these systems I mentioned so I can easily A/B test between them and while they do not sound exactly the same, it is hard to tell the top ends apart.  Using a microphone and RTA the curves are virtually identical.  In fact I used the curves from my big MCM setup to adjust the EQ on the analog system.......until they were the same.  Simple to do.  20 minute job with an RTA.  This setup WORKS GREAT.

 

JWC has been over and listened to this many times.  Perhaps he will comment if he sees this.  I would put this setup up against anything in a room and I'm sure it would do just fine.

 

 

I don’t remember the model number, but I think I’ve read where your model DBX is one of the 1/3-octave models of equalizer that they sell where the center frequency of its filters are spaced one third of an octave apart, or three filters to an octave. 

 

The 1/3-octave equalizers on the market today are really nice and, I know this is oversimplification, but somewhat like having 30 separate “volume controls” per channel to adjust the amplitude of very specific audio frequencies.

 

Last year I was looking for a nicer 1/3-octave equalizer and I was surprised how many hit the used market regularly and at decent prices.  Of course there is additional risk buying used vs. buying new; however, with a little patience and research it isn’t too hard to find a nice deal on used equipment if someone doesn’t want to buy new.

 

Here is the general list of my focused searches and where the majority of the selling prices seemed to end up.  Of course, there are outliers to the ranges and with a little patience and time, it can be fairly easy to find a nice example below the range I listed. I found a very nice Klark Teknik DN360 with the factory installed balanced transformers for $229 shipped.

 

 

 

 

XTA GQ600

List: ~ $1,575

Used: ~ $300 - $450

 

 

 

 

 

 

Klark Teknik DN360

List: ~ $1,299

Used: ~ $250 - $400

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ashly GQX-3102

List: ~ $620

Used: ~ $150 - $300

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

I use a DBX 1231 which is around $399.00.  As you have shown there are others that will do the job,  I haven't tried any others so there is probably better.  I know Rane makes a good one.  The DBX is home audio friendly which is a big consideration.

[Fjd]

It looks like this has a really crude routing job for the ports on the horn...

 

Bruce

 

 

 

It looks like this has a really crude routing job for the ports on the horn...

 

Bruce

 

Nothing wrong with using cardboard either.

 

 

 

Since I have essentially no experience in building horns, you both got me worried about what I'm planning with my old ALK/Martinelli trachorns. 

 

Are these issues you both point out really that detrimental to the synergy design using the standard DIY-type tractrix horn base similar to my trachorns and similar to the other wood tractrix horns people are using on Klipsch speakers, which from my read of the thread, seems to be more of a “proof of concept build” he did in 2014 rather than a finished product ready to sell? 

 

I guess that I looked at both of the threads and it seems to me that the 2016 Faital Pro LTH142 tractrix horn with all of the 3d printing is a type of "evolution" or "progression" of his take on the tractrix-synergy concept that he started with the wood tractrix horn (similar to the wood horn many use on Klipsch) in 2014.

 

I was actually very impressed that the measurements in that thread of the "Trynergy" with only an 8.5" X 13" mouth, supported horn loaded gain down to 350Hz, along with a very nice response curve, all using inexpensive drivers.  I couldn’t determine if directivity narrows like the traditional tractrix curve, but I suspect it does since I didn't see any changes in the horn to address that aspect.

 

However, now I’m worried that since I may not be able to make my trachorns very pretty converting them to the synergy design, especially like the 3d printed pieces from his 2016 synergy build using the Faital Pro horn as a base.

 

From everything I have read on the DIYAudio forum, the forum where Patrick Bateman posts his car synergy horns, and in the “K402 synergy” that Chris is building, while there are complex aspects to the build, each example also seems to indicate that the design results in fairly forgiving builds.

 

Since this will be my first attempt, maybe before I cut into my trachorns, please expand on these issues you guys are seeing and help me better understand the actual impact of these issues on the horn loading, response curves and measurements for this design?   How would you do it differently to mitigate these impacts, what materials should I use and what type of tools should I try to find access in order to give my build a better chance of success?

[Chris A]

For €499 you get real hi-fi equalization and SNR, time alignment, fast limiting protection of drivers, and crossovers for both loudspeakers with choice of crossover filter type (including extreme slope) and breakpoint frequency control, along with individual driver channel gain:

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bQd-x5qOHCEJ:www.kinxsound.be/detail.php%3Fp%3D459+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

This is why I recommend digital loudspeaker processors.

 

Chris

[Chris A]

From everything I have read on the DIYAudio forum, the forum where Patrick Bateman posts his car synergy horns, and in the “K402 synergy” that Chris is building, while there are complex aspects to the build, each example also seems to indicate that the design results in fairly forgiving builds.

 

The reason why xrk971, Bateman, and Bushmeister can use such "crude" materials and techniques is because you can't measure or hear "nice" builds.  The real beauty of the design is its robustness.

 

Chris

Edited March 25, 2016 by Chris A

[Chris A]

The real sensitivity to geometry is at the throat of the horn--at high frequencies with corresponding short wavelengths. 

[HPower]

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/162986-fs-pair-faital-pro-hf-200-compression-drivers/

 

What say you guys,

 

Would this be a good driver to go with these 402s that I hopefully will be buying?

They are 16ohm version, does that work in a 2 way Jubilee, or will I need a 8ohm CD?

 

I can't really afford drivers right now, but if I can help out jorgen and get a good match for the 402s, I

would throw the drivers on my card.

 

Someone should also help Jorgen out and buy his VRDs!!!

 

[The Dude]

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/162986-fs-pair-faital-pro-hf-200-compression-drivers/

 

What say you guys,

 

Would this be a good driver to go with these 402s that I hopefully will be buying?

They are 16ohm version, does that work in a 2 way Jubilee, or will I need a 8ohm CD?

 

I can't really afford drivers right now, but if I can help out jorgen and get a good match for the 402s, I

would throw the drivers on my card.

 

Someone should also help Jorgen out and buy his VRDs!!!

 

 

I believe those were the ones I just sold him.  Man I hope all is all right and he gets everything worked out.   I believe Bob Crites uses those on his 402s and the reason I purchased them.   Maybe contact Bob and see what he has to say. 

[HPower]

 

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/162986-fs-pair-faital-pro-hf-200-compression-drivers/

 

What say you guys,

 

Would this be a good driver to go with these 402s that I hopefully will be buying?

They are 16ohm version, does that work in a 2 way Jubilee, or will I need a 8ohm CD?

 

I can't really afford drivers right now, but if I can help out jorgen and get a good match for the 402s, I

would throw the drivers on my card.

 

Someone should also help Jorgen out and buy his VRDs!!!

 

 

I believe those were the ones I just sold him.  Man I hope all is all right and he gets everything worked out.   I believe Bob Crites uses those on his 402s and the reason I purchased them.   Maybe contact Bob and see what he has to say. 

 

Hey 1982,

 

Thanks for your input.

Yes, most importantly we all wish for the best for jorjen and his son!

 

I just sent Bob an email to see what he says.

 

It would be nice to be able to help out a guy that has given so much inspiration with his posts on this forum.

jorjen still has my most favourite masterpiece that I have seen created on this forum, and this forum has had hundreds (plus) of memorable builds!

[HPower]

Roy graciously has made available appropriate delay, xo points and EQ for certain end user configurations. This is limited to a few drivers with the K510 or K402 horn on a few different bass bins. This is a snap with an active digital processor.

Hey jwc,

 

I have gone ahead and purchase the 402s that I was lucky enough to come across and while I was at it sprung for a pair of 510s 

 

I do have some options now 

 

Speaking of options, I do remember reading a post were someone (maybe you) listed Roy's proven horn/driver/ bass combos they he made

available the Xover set-ups.

I cannot find, any idea where to read up on this?

[jwc]

What drivers on the horns? 

 

What bass bin?

 

Roy never made available EQ settings for the 510 and 402 together.  Mark1101 and I have  done our own make shift settings....with that setup.

[HPower]

What drivers on the horns? 

 

What bass bin?

 

Roy never made available EQ settings for the 510 and 402 together.  Mark1101 and I have  done our own make shift settings....with that setup.

 

Well...

It has been of a bit of a yard sale approach since coming across these local 402s that I happened across.

I don't have a real plan, more of a dream at this point.

Unfortunately the dream is fuelled by a beer budget vs. champagne budget. 

 

My current set up is… as per post #45.

Mac Mini server> Triode Lab 2A3 Integrated amp> Style C Cornscalas with ALK Universal Cornscala-Wall Xovers, B&C DE85TNs.

 

When I decided to grab the 402s that I was asking about here, I decided to push some needed $ at Jordan for the Faiatal HF-200 (16ohm) that he had listed.

In talking with Mark (1101) I also ordered a pair of 510s with the suggestion that 3way might be worth exploring in a Jub set up.

 

My integrated amp (which I am LOVING) and my current limited budget will necessitate me going passive for the time being and I will try to use my Cornscalas

for bass duties until I can either find a beater pair of La Scalas (JubScalas) or better yet build a pair of Jub bass bins.

 

Another option if the Jub bins look too much for my building abilities might be to build a pair of DBBs… ?

 

When all these "yardsale" components arrive, for giggles I am going to plug then into my CSs by blocking off the CS mid and tweet and then place the

402/510...B&C 85s/HF-200 atop the Cornscalas, feeding them signal from the ALK Universal Cornscala-Wall Xovers.

 

Not sure what will happen...

[HPower]

PS:

Eventually, I would like to explore an active set up but I was encouraged to hear both you and Mark's feelings that

a passive setup (with some sort of EQ device)  will work.