IB Slammin Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 (edited) My room is a mess....I hope to have it all setup and finished this summer. My new baffles and grill slid right in.... Just thinking that the system is a bit lite on subs.....???? Edited April 4, 2016 by IB Slammin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 JWC, if your room is a mess then a tornado hit mine... Very nice setup. Ah yea ditto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted April 27, 2016 Author Share Posted April 27, 2016 I've listened to this more and I have the tweeter un attenuated. Puzzles me but it sounds great this way. I'm very pleased. I'm sure it won't be long before I have to give in and get the ESN500. I'm a sucker for extreme slopes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) I'm sure it won't be long before I have to give in and get the ESN500. I'm a sucker for extreme slopes. Have you A/B'd gentle vs extreme slope? I'm wondering what differences a person might hear in real life. If you want to comment on any disadvantages of extreme slope I would like to hear your views on that as well as I contemplate my next move for updating/upgrading my unmolested 1978 Khorns. Note to Mustang Guy: I have a feeling we'll be talking sometime soon. (BTW I have a Toslink cable for you) Here is a recent discussion we had with some good stuff in it. We were discussing La Scalas AA crossover, but is a Khorn AA XO any different? https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/162649-la-scala-setup-wvu80-charging-capacitors/?hl=%2Baa+%2Bcrossover#entry1993438 Edited June 7, 2016 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 7, 2016 Author Share Posted June 7, 2016 """Have you A/B'd gentle vs extreme slope?""" Yes. Not on this speaker though. I'm sure there are other opinions on the difference....so no novelty here in my response. ESN to me offer more resolution, detail and imaging. They do require to play the music a little louder for them to "open up".......... this could be a problem for some. The lower slopes start to bother me at higher volumes. At a lower volume they do have an "attractive" sound. Many throw the word "ambiance" (sp) and the vocals sound good with this. I can't think of other words right now but there is an appealing factor. I've had more than one pair of gentle slopes and ESN in different speakers. I have some experience. I wouldn't hesitate to buy ESN's again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Gentle slopes are for gentle listeners, and extreme slope are for extreme listeners. Neither work that well if try to use them opposite of how they were intended. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 ^ Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Low order filters: sitting within 15' in an average sized room, you can engage in live level listening (105dB peaks) without any signs of distress from the loudspeakers. If you want to get an extra 10dB, buy a pair of Tractrix horns from Dave Harris. Some of you listen at insanely loud levels. ESNs help with this, but provide what I believe to be a one dimensional listening experience. Some of you are going be in hearing aids soon. You can have your cake and eat it too: build your AAs with paper in oils and drop the midrange output 3dB, and it will both sound better and play plenty loud enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Come again, i couldn't hear ya. Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 The problem with gentle slope networks that will never go away, not matter the room size nor the caps, the attenuation, etc.........is the fact the drivers are playing the same music over the top of one another out of time with one another. Turn it up too loud and it sounds like crap. No matter what. Historically, the word "harsh" has been used to describe Klipsch speakers, and I always attributed this description to the issue, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) I realize most people going active will use steeper slopes, but I'll ask the question... has anyone used gentle slopes when going active and getting all the delays set? Bruce Edited June 8, 2016 by Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Yea Bruce it seems like with an active you could have two settings. Gentler slope for low to moderate listening level and steeper slope for loud and "too damn loud". But I have never done either yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Roy's active settings for Jubs have 24 db/octave which has overlap. The difference is that the overlap is time aligned and phase coherent. So the drivers playing the same music over the top of one in another are doing so at exactly the same time. Can't get any better than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) I've listened to this more and I have the tweeter un attenuated. Puzzles me but it sounds great this way. I'm very pleased. I'm sure it won't be long before I have to give in and get the ESN500. I'm a sucker for extreme slopes. To clarify...right now has ESN5800 and AP12-500 Edited June 8, 2016 by jwc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 The problem with gentle slope networks that will never go away, not matter the room size nor the caps, the attenuation, etc.........is the fact the drivers are playing the same music over the top of one another out of time with one another. Turn it up too loud and it sounds like crap. No matter what. Historically, the word "harsh" has been used to describe Klipsch speakers, and I always attributed this description to the issue, The harshness is caused by a combination of the K-400/401 and the K-77. Deal with those two things and it smooths out quite a bit. Drivers are aren't running over on top of each other as much as you think. Everyone keeps using electrical models to demonstrate this, but it's the acoustic response that matters. While the filters might be low order, the acoustic roll off is much steeper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Look at the natural roll off - does that look like 6dB/octave? The behavior of the bass horn is similar. When you combine the acoustic roll off with the electrical, it gets even steeper. ESNs will always do better in large rooms with big amplifiers at insane levels - but the great majority of listening is not done at those levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 You are probably right that you can tune it out to some extent. My experience was with the stock horns. I always loved the wooden tractrix but jumped to the large horns. But I have heard plenty of the tractrix and they are much better than the exponential. You mention lowering the squawker by 3db. That additionally reduces overlap and I would expect that to help with the clarity. I have been using the ESNs for many years and you don't have to crank them to insane levels for it to sound good. If that were the case I would have migrated from them years ago. As it stands I still favor the ESNs over any of the other networks I have heard. It's probably just personal preference. But when you do want to let the volume fly, they are rock solid for the long haul. Makes me feel like my money was well spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 I don't listen at insane levels. I'm probably high 80's low 90's dB. I will say there is an "open up" with the ESN's with it gets a "little loud". Such that I might be sitting with my wife and she has some disc in the player. She controls the volume and I notice she turns it up to that point I'm talking about. It is loud enough that she and I won't start talking to each other casually..... like if we had some back ground music. At that level....you are listening to the music....that is it. The low order open up quicker. I just don't find as much of the detail and imaging with them. I have some Auricaped Type AA nets here just sittin around. I could easily A/B again...but I'm not as eager to run through experimentation as much as the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I am only using VRDs (60 WPC) and with the Peach or NBS do not even come close to testing this setup to get to that "open up" point. It's nowhere's near being pushed by any means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 It sounds as if you're saying that you can't get the system to "open up" with 60 wpc. I don't think that's what you meant. JC, those with aged induced hearing loss typically like the tweeter a little hotter than most. Maybe you're just old. This of course is all subjective. If tastes didn't vary, there would be a lot less to talk about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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