Borisravel Posted October 28, 2016 Author Share Posted October 28, 2016 At your command ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borisravel Posted October 28, 2016 Author Share Posted October 28, 2016 Today, a friend a mine went at home in order to listen to them. For him, medium was very fine, but he noticed a little lack of dynamic in the basses and a slightly metallic coloration in the trebles (hi hat or cymbals). Is it a crossover fail symptom ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 26 minutes ago, Borisravel said: For him, medium was very fine, but he noticed a little lack of dynamic in the basses and a slightly metallic coloration in the trebles (hi hat or cymbals). Is it a crossover fail symptom ? The lack of bass of the La Scala is well known--that's why the Klipschorn sells so well (and Khorns in false corners work without requiring room corners quite well). They have bass extension down to 31 Hz (-3 dB), whereas the La Scala bass performance rolls off about 1-1.5 octaves higher frequency. Some music source material shows the difference between the La Scala and the Khorn strongly, but it's usually not present due to mastering EQ that is used to attenuate electric bass/acoustic double bass and kick drum in the lowest audible (i.e., non-tactile) octave. The "metallic coloration" remark is typically the music that you're playing--can you identify the album titles that you played? Klipsch does not "roll off" their loudspeaker output like other direct-radiating loudspeaker manufacturers--the response is flat. Perhaps your friend is used to that "rolled off" response? The K-400 midrange starts to sound a bit harsh at about 3.5 kHz. If you look at tweeter alternatives (next paragraph) and move the crossover point down to 2.5 kHz, that harsh sound is mitigated. The K-77 tweeter is a bit harsh relative to say a Beyma CP25 properly EQed for purpose. Even the Crites CP-25 tweeter is smoother, in my experience, but it needs a slight boost in gain (like 1-2 dB) relative to the K-77. I haven't heard the newest Crites CP-20 tweeter, or other horn-loaded tweeters with wide coverage angles that would be appropriate tweeter alternatives for a La Scala. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 49 minutes ago, Borisravel said: Today, a friend a mine went at home in order to listen to them. For him, medium was very fine, but he noticed a little lack of dynamic in the basses and a slightly metallic coloration in the trebles (hi hat or cymbals). Is it a crossover fail symptom ? Tow the speakers INWARDS about 3 to 5 degrees...both sides...that should drop the "metallic coloration" in cymbals/hi-hats to your friend's desire. When you are used to hearing things a certain way, it takes time to adjust pre-perceptions of how they SHOULD sound. Metallic is how those particular items are supposed to sound, but by adjusting the horn directivity to the so-called "sweet spot" so that the horn lenses' center-lines are NOT going directly to your ear openings, but instead the center-lines cross about an inch or so in front of your nose you will see two things happen: the center-stage will strengthen a bit and the soundstage, as a whole, will even itself up. Horn directivity is a different animal than what listeners to non-horn-loading have become used to. I would advise to show the speakers off by listening at VERY low volumes initially on particular songs and slowly easing the volume up so that they can see that EVERYTHING IS THERE, no matter which volume the speakers are set at. You can also do things in reverse...either way it shows the advantages of horns. That is the REAL beauty of horn-loading! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 14 hours ago, Borisravel said: At your command ! Excellent! Notice any difference at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borisravel Posted October 29, 2016 Author Share Posted October 29, 2016 @jimjimbo: Not really, but my room is really big an high. The two big rugs are more than 10 feet long and there is another little rug just in front of the armchair. @HDBRbuilder: you were EXACTLY right, the metallic coloration disappeared placing speakers inwards ! But there is another phenomemon I can't explain. Next to the speakers, basses are loud. Not too loud, it's seems. Moving back to my armchair, basses fading out until this famous "lack of bass". Is it a power output amplifier problem ? @Chris A: I'll ask him again. The first album was from Dire Straits. Saxophon was a little arsh. The second album was jazz too, I'll give you the name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 I think a little more toe in is needed. Then loosen and retighten all the screws on the crossover and the bass connection block that goes to woofer. . Check to make sure the mid range driver is tight on the horn. Check in with Bob Crites for crossover parts and if your able rebuild those crossovers. I know its over looked and I have even done it ...check POLARITY on wires...........I would do one speaker then listen in mono so you can see if anything changed after you do all this. I willing to bet there will be a difference. I don't see any thing different from first pic and second one except rug is moved did you toe them in more on second picture? I still think you need more toe in. Also that mid range driver black plastic cover has been known to be loose and cause noise tap on it make sure it has not come loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borisravel Posted October 29, 2016 Author Share Posted October 29, 2016 Don't look for diffrences between the two pics, I just rotated the rug. Here is an actual pic: All wires have been checked. It was OK. But I can't stop wondering why lugs, it's not audiophile at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbphoto Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 Is your chair in the middle of the room or against the back wall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 I am guessing you are sitting in a null, and what bass you have is canceling out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borisravel Posted October 29, 2016 Author Share Posted October 29, 2016 The armchair is about 6 feet the back wall. @Marvel: what is a null ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbphoto Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 A null is an area of the room where the troughs/valleys of sound waves for a particular frequency range converge. I think it's pretty common in most rooms to have weak bass in the middle of the room and stronger bass along the walls. How is the bass if you stand behind your chair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 37 minutes ago, Borisravel said: : what is a null ? If you move about the room with music playing, you will find some spots have very little bass, some spots sound pretty good and in some places the bass might sound boomy, like a single bass note that is louder than anything else. The null is where the bass is very weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borisravel Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 I'll try to determinate if there is a null zone in my room, but don't be focussed on this "lack", I found these speakers very realistic. The friend who came has a big tri amplified Altec/Onken sytem in a little room so the feeling is not the same, the price of my total system is the price of one of his Mcintosh amplifier... I move on now, but would it be a good improvement, before buying a crossover repare kit ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Klipsch-Type-AA-Speaker-Crossover-for-La-Scala-or-Belle-Speakers-Vintage-/131966710263?hash=item1eb9d431f7:g:dfIAAOSw4shX~Eo6 Not to expensive, but no international shipping... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 That is only a single crossover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borisravel Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 Oups... Where could I buy a pair of AA crossovers ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 It is pretty easy to just convert yours to AA crossovers if you have the soldering skill.....not that hard..... or have friend do it. You can also buy whole AA crossover from Bob I'm sure Bob can send it to you he has before. Don't buy used from internet ......That one you showed on ebay is crap it needs rebuilt also The lugs you talk about in my opinion are better. Take a pic sitting in the chair so we can tell the toe in angle better. What's the bass setting on the pre amp?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borisravel Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 AA new crossovers are not so expensive but it's 70$ more for shipping, and then 70$ more fort VAT and custom taxes. Here is a clearer pics. Convergence lines are about my knees. Sorry for the light, it's very sunny today. My preamp is certainly the weakest link of my system. It's an old NAD 917 av preamp. In stereo, sound is absolutely warm, detailed and tube-like. My friend loaned me a Yaqin preamp in order to try it, but sound was really crappy. But as an AV preamp, bandwich is perhaps a little short in bass and treble. Actually, tone corrector is disconnect. I can just adjust the bass and treble level. My friend loaned me an equalizer as a temporary solution, but I don't tried yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 My preference is for on axis to be behind the LP... did you try that? Are there any wall treatments behind the LP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borisravel Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 I'll try that. I feel bass are stronger inward than outward the dog house. No, any wall traitement behind the speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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