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richieb

Class D Crown vs. Hypex nCore

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29 minutes ago, Schu said:

The proof is in the sound... and what sound you are looking for. I don't need to understand the technology if it sounds good.

 

 

No need to understand. One should always trust their ears first and not their knowledge when i comes to sound. I do not want to part with my SE 300B for any reason or any amp. Totally different and a very engaging experience I love. Just lovely sounding with our speakers. I also like SS single ended amplifiers almost as good. But then I enjoy a very good push pull SS amplifier as well. Class D is more of the push pull sound, at least the ones I have heard.  

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2 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

You're welcome.  I try to do my part.

 

Carl,  I've edited the post to limit the low bar to electronics. 

 

2 minutes ago, wdecho said:

There are many on this forum that are far more knowledgable than myself. My knowledge is limited to the repair field in my profession and some limited electronic courses many years ago. I stated that I consider myself only a solder slinger. You took a passage of my posting out of context. Most members of this forum are just here because of this being a speaker forum with no electronic background. That is all I meant by saying I am more knowledgeable than most on this forum when it comes to electronics. Members should read the entire post and see that in no way was I bragging. 

 

 

I didn't take your comment as bragging.  IMO, a few here have amazing electronics knowledge that outstrips my meager knowledge, but most on the forum have all they can do to decipher series vs. parallel when connecting multiple speakers.  That is not meant as a put down, just a statement of what I believe to be correct.  Each has his/her areas of expertise.  The wealth and diversity of knowledge is what makes this forum great.

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1 minute ago, DizRotus said:

Carl,  I've edited the post to limit the low bar to electronics. 

No need to edit for me.  I was just having fun.

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8 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

No need to edit for me.  I was just having fun.

 

 I know, but the "electronics" qualifier is appropriate.  The knowledge bars are very high on this forum, so it's important to know which standard is in play.

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4 hours ago, DizRotus said:

Hey @ClaudeJ1 do you know the street number of High-Fidelity Workshop from when it was on Woodward?  When I drive on Woodward I can't be certain where it was.  What Mile roads was it between?  I recall it being on the east side of Woodward.  What's in that space now?

 

@DizRotus I have the receipts for my La Scalas that I bought there if you want the address, I'll dig'em out , hopefully they're not too faded. And yes they were on the east side of Woodward. I think between 12 mile and Catalpa.

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8 minutes ago, babadono said:

@DizRotus I have the receipts for my La Scalas that I bought there if you want the address, I'll dig'em out , hopefully they're not too faded. And yes they were on the east side of Woodward. I think between 12 mile and Catalpa.

 

That would be great.  A pic of one, with personal info redacted, would be even greater.  It's not important, but it does bug me trying to recall which storefront it was.

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Roger wilco. But not until later when I'm home, got this work thing getting in my way right now:)

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4 minutes ago, babadono said:

Roger wilco. But not until later when I'm home, got this work thing getting in my way right now:)

 

Come on now - lets get your priorities straight! Work-forum --- work-forum --- work-forum.

I think the answer is clear and right in front of you --- and if you don't happen to be the Boss let me know.

I'll send him a note with your excuse for sub-par attention to the tasks at hand --

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^take it easy there big fella, I'm on my lunch break and I'm working at the same time and checking the forum and chewing gum:)

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5 minutes ago, babadono said:

^take it easy there big fella, I'm on my lunch break and I'm working at the same time and checking the forum and chewing gum:)

 

Duly noted -- carry on 

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I'd love to hear an nCore amp.  Richie, be a chum and let me borrow one for a year or so.

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^^^^^

Be A chum or Be Chum?! 

I guess this all depends if you are the shark or the chum? (And I have no idea what this means).

PM forthcoming -- Mate 

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10 hours ago, DizRotus said:

Hey @ClaudeJ1 do you know the street number of High-Fidelity Workshop from when it was on Woodward?  When I drive on Woodward I can't be certain where it was.  What Mile roads was it between?  I recall it being on the east side of Woodward.  What's in that space now?

Got my Khorns and mono LaScala center there back in 1977. The owners wanted to retire and the employees coudn't afford to buy the business, so they closed. IDK exactly where it was, but I do remember meeting Bob Moers there when I was barely 20. That was many moons, amps, and Klipsch speakers ago including 2 pairs of Khorns.

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8 hours ago, DrWho said:

The Rdson specs aren't the limiting factor when it comes to MOSFETs....switching losses typically dominate the heat generation.

 

I just wanted to mention that Class D designs that maximize efficiency 'usually' aren't maximizing the distortion capability of the system. It's a nice benefit that we don't need massive heatsinks, but the real benefit of Class D is that it has incredibly good performance at low signal levels. I think talking about the heat generation distracts from the true benefit of Class D, which sonically speaking, when implemented well, is going to be superior to Class A. I know some engineering friends that would cringe at that, but I think the numbers are defensible. The characteristics of a delta-sigma encoding are far better than a voltage encoding, but you have to be willing to accept a paradigm shift. We can encode signals in voltage, current, and time. Classical audio uses the voltage encoding because it's easy to wrap your head around, but is it the best medium? Why not encode in the current or time domains? Or why not encode across multiple domains? Delta-sigma encodes in the time/voltage domain, which is the easiest encoding to minimize errors in - especially for bandwidth limited signals. Class A is voltage domain only, and all of its distortions are related to the time domain, which require making tradeoffs. You can keep making delta-sigma better until you run out of electrons, and the parasitic effects of real parts can be designed in such a way that they just cancel themselves out entirely....

I agree about the switching losses dominating the heat as well as the capacitive parasitics in the MOSFET juncion.  I also agree that the real benefit is how much better than class AB they sound at 0.1 watts with efficient speakers. Every bit the equal of my single Ended Class A Pass Aleph J, which was the best I heard until I got the Hypex NC400. Now I have the best of both worlds WITHOUT the "space heater." This is truly all that matters to mine and other ears.

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Class D usually has problems at low levels due to the dead time required to prevent shoot-thru (which makes them overheat).

 

With low enough Rds-on specs, the DCR in the output inductors can generate more heat than the output stage (many pro designs have heatsinks on the output inductors).

 

I can show anyone wanting to do a commercial design how to eliminate dead time, even over temperature (for a fee of course).

 

(Burr Brown had a very complex design, my idea is simpler).

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16 hours ago, djk said:

Class D usually has problems at low levels due to the dead time required to prevent shoot-thru (which makes them overheat).

 

With low enough Rds-on specs, the DCR in the output inductors can generate more heat than the output stage (many pro designs have heatsinks on the output inductors).

 

I can show anyone wanting to do a commercial design how to eliminate dead time, even over temperature (for a fee of course).

 

(Burr Brown had a very complex design, my idea is simpler).

The dead time has zero effect at low signal levels if you design your modulation properly.

 

 

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The ATI amps (using hypex ncore modules) have excellent measurements at lower wattages, although I'd like to see the first watt expanded cause there looks like a dip thereafter: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ati-at527nc-and-at524nc-amplifiers-review-test-bench

2017-08-02.png
 

But still, this beats most measurements I've seen except for the Benchmark AHB2.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements

 

Some more good looking measurements from the NAD M22 (scroll to bottom for IMD), I'm thinking they also use hypex ncores:

http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/nad-masters-series-m12-preamp-and-m22-stereo-power-amplifier-review/

 

3 hours ago, DrWho said:

The dead time has zero effect at low signal levels if you design your modulation properly.

 

 

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