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Klipsch vs Cerwin Vega?

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Guest wdecho
7 hours ago, Carey said:

They are definitely a different sound from what I am used to. Been a klipsch guy for 25 years. First pair of klipsch's were a pair of epic cf4's back in 1994, then heresy 2's, then a pair of mid 70's lascalas and now the cornwall 3's. Love the horns as well...going to crank the %$#$% out of the CV's in an effort to get them broken in. Then an accurate comparison can be made.

 

Cheers

It can all depend on your chose of music and what sound best for your taste. Variety is the spice of life. I have many amplifiers, probably over 30, I do not bother counting them because I am constantly building. Just a hobby of mine. Most are the higher end circuits principle class A. All sound different, none the exact same. Biggest difference is the difference between push pull and single ended amplifiers. Each has their signature sound. I can enjoy both flavors with certain music at different times. Horns are what I like best and for room shaking bass get a good sub. 

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So in a blind listening test you will be able to discern the amplifier or amplifier's topology?  A company (I forget the name) offered a rather large sum of money for someone to prove this to them. 

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11 hours ago, wdecho said:

Probably the reason tube amplifiers are still going strong in the market even though there are not the cleanest form of amplification. 

Yep. Tubes have that "pleasant distortion" preferred by many. I had tubes (HK Citation II, Scott, Marantz, McIntosh) in my teens and 20's. I preferred their sound over some of the early solid state, but I hated the maintenance. Greatest thing about them was the increase in resale value!

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40 minutes ago, Frzninvt said:

So in a blind listening test you will be able to discern the amplifier or amplifier's topology?  A company (I forget the name) offered a rather large sum of money for someone to prove this to them. 

 

I think Stereophile did a piece for an A/B listening test that had an amp designer tune his SS amp to sound identical to tubes. Maybe Bob Carver or Jim Bogliagono?)sp) of GAS fame? 

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Guest wdecho
33 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Yep. Tubes have that "pleasant distortion" preferred by many. I had tubes (HK Citation II, Scott, Marantz, McIntosh) in my teens and 20's. I preferred their sound over some of the early solid state, but I hated the maintenance. Greatest thing about them was the increase in resale value!

Regarding the spectrum analyzing of the Hypex, I am just curious if like the Texas Instruments TPA3255 the Hypex designers put some 2nd harmonic in their amplifier. I am willing to guess there is a tiny amount. 

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2 minutes ago, wdecho said:

Regarding the spectrum analyzing of the Hypex, I am just curious if like the Texas Instruments TPA3255 the Hypex designers put some 2nd harmonic in their amplifier. I am willing to guess there is a tiny amount. 

I read Bruno Putzey's white paper on the Nc400. It's very technical, as you can imagine, but I very much like his marketing phrase: "Neither dirt nor fairy dust."

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Guest wdecho
2 minutes ago, MerkinMuffley said:

Here's the infamous Stereophile challenge with Bob Carver.  Speaks for itself: https://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge

 

Often mistakenly taken that a solid state amplifier can sound like any tube amplifier. It was a specific tube amplifier that Bob pulled this off with. I am willing to guess a push pull one. Push pull tube amplifiers are a lot like a SS push pull amplifier. Much easier to duplicate. Not to diminish the highly talented Bob Carver duplicating the specific amplifier but to design a SET tube amplifier is another ball game. As far as I am aware of Nelson Pass is the only one who has marketed a SS amplifier that can rival a SET 300B in the SIT-1 and SIT-2. He pulled this off with specially designed SIT transistors specifically made for him for $250,000. Those SIT's have curves that mimic the 300B curves but not quite as linear as the 300B. Close but no cigar. Good enough to challenge the mighty SET 300B though.  

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2 minutes ago, wdecho said:

Often mistakenly taken that a solid state amplifier can sound like any tube amplifier. It was a specific tube amplifier that Bob pulled this off with. I am willing to guess a push pull one. Push pull tube amplifiers are a lot like a SS push pull amplifier. Much easier to duplicate. Not to diminish the highly talented Bob Carver duplicating the specific amplifier but to design a SET tube amplifier is another ball game. As far as I am aware of Nelson Pass is the only one who has marketed a SS amplifier that can rival a SET 300B in the SIT-1 and SIT-2. He pulled this off with specially designed SIT transistors specifically made for him for $250,000. Those SIT's have curves that mimic the 300B curves but not quite as linear as the 300B. Close but no cigar. Good enough to challenge the mighty SET 300B though.  

In all honesty, I'm done chasing the amplifiers. Nc400 is the end of the line for me. Below 1 Watt, it sounds "close enough" to the Aleph J Clone Single Ended Class A amp I just sold, above 1 watt, it has enough power for me to reach 125-130 db with my horns. Heck, they even power a pair of Carver Amazing Platinums I'm playing with now to reasonably loud levels. I never turn them off since they draw less power than an old fashioned night light when idle.

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Guest wdecho
6 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

In all honesty, I'm done chasing the amplifiers. Nc400 is the end of the line for me. Below 1 Watt, it sounds "close enough" to the Aleph J Clone Single Ended Class A amp I just sold, above 1 watt, it has enough power for me to reach 125-130 db with my horns. Heck, they even power a pair of Carver Amazing Platinums I'm playing with now to reasonably loud levels. I never turn them off since they draw less power than an old fashioned night light when idle.

I can understand. My TI TPA3255 is a fantastic amplifier that is hard to beat. Being a diy amplifier builder I continue on though. Occupies my retirement time. 

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4 hours ago, wdecho said:

It can all depend on your chose of music and what sound best for your taste. Variety is the spice of life. I have many amplifiers, probably over 30, I do not bother counting them because I am constantly building. Just a hobby of mine. Most are the higher end circuits principle class A. All sound different, none the exact same. Biggest difference is the difference between push pull and single ended amplifiers. Each has their signature sound. I can enjoy both flavors with certain music at different times. Horns are what I like best and for room shaking bass get a good sub. 

I agree. Both speakers sound great. Subwoofers are a necessity. I have a Cerwin Vega CVHF-A18S powered sub to add that extra punch required.  

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Finding the best amp for a person is about like finding the best meal - - recommendations from others seem to be pointless. e.g. "I just don't like fish." Just as everyone sees something different in art, they also hear something different in these audio systems. When it comes to telephones, a final consensus concluded that IOS and Android were the winners - the best choices. But for amps or speakers there is no consensus or consolidation that ever arrives. Funny.

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Haha, a Cerwin Vega thread from eight months ago turns into an amplifier debate.

 

Amps all sound the same?  For your reading pleasure:

 

Vintage vs. New

 

I find this the most fascinating part of the hobby - we can measure things all we want, but there are parts of the sound we can't quantify, like odd-vs-even order harmonics.

 

Back to Klipsch vs. CV:

 

I have owned numerous sets of both - in CVs I have has A-123, HED U-123, D5, and VS120.

 

In Klipsch I have owned RB-61, RB-61ii, Synergy F3, and Forte.

 

The Forte remain, and none of the rest do.  

 

To me, the biggest problem I have had with CVs is a lack of sharpness on the top end.  Although the tweeters were capable of generating plenty of sound, they lacked the crispness that my Fortes have (acknowledged they do have Crites titanium diaphragms).  The midranges were also somewhat offensive, and needed a good EQ to tame down their "shouty" tendencies.

 

And, for whatever odd reason, they never seemed to generate bass in the way their woofer size and design suggested they should.  When EQd, you could get them to thump, but tonality of bass was lost.

 

Unfortunately, as a teenager in the 1980s, I saw CVs as the pinnacle of rock speakers, and continue(d) to try and find the "right" set to have fun with in my system.  No success as of yet, and my odds of acquiring more CVs is rather slim.

 

From the Klipsch side, the F-3 had absolutely superb bass, that was effortless to generate.  However, they also were a disappointment with a recessed midrange, and beamy treble.  Not sure if it was a feature of the aluminum domes, or the horn design, but the treble did lack some focus compared to better domed-tweeter speakers I own.  The RB-61s were both better, but were also "missing" something from the midrange, though the titanium tweeter certainly was an improvement over the aluminum.

 

The Forte have stayed and earned a permanent place in my tube system, as they generate excellent tuneful bass, and have superb dynamics.  Although the CVs also had great dynamics, they were sloppy where the Forte are crisp, and shouty where the Forte are present.  In short (and rather humorously), the Klipsch do appear to share some design philosophies with CV, but these philosophies were executed to a much higher degree.

 

As it relates to the new CVs, I have heard two of the CLS models, and the treble and midrange were improved over the models I listed above.  That being stated, I did feel they trended towards stridency, and I was somewhat amazed at how little bass they generated without any additional bass compensation (i.e. loudness, bass control, or EQ). 

 

 

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Tone adjustments are on flat. Bass response is a non issue with the XLS215's. Mids and highs are never annoying. It is a well balanced speaker.Very similar bass response to my cornwall 3's......Maybe even a little more bass response with the Cv's :cool: I love the sound that both sets reproduce :emotion-21:

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5 hours ago, Frzninvt said:

I never said I didn't like CV speakers.  I absolutely do.  I had a pair D-8's in the late 80's and thought they were great, but I did end up replacing them with Klipsch Forte's in 1988.  I also had a pair of CV HED U12's as well.  They also made the best 6x9 speaker for cars ever in the late 70's through the late 80's with the CS line, the CS-18A's were amazing.

CV D-8.jpg

CV CS-18A Back.jpg

CV CS-18A Front.jpg

Excellent...  

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News flash.

 

I know some of you would wish it so, but all amplifiers do NOT sound the same. If this were true, we would all be listening with Best Buy receivers.

 

Back on topic. I bought a pair of CV speakers back in 1986 from an ad in the newspaper (remember those?). I think I kept them about a month. Good riddance.

 

Shakey

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1 hour ago, wdecho said:

I can understand. My TI TPA3255 is a fantastic amplifier that is hard to beat. Being a diy amplifier builder I continue on though. Occupies my retirement time. 

I have 2 of those TPA34255's that need power supplies and cases.

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Problem is, most people don't have any room correction with their setup or are counting on hearing a significant difference in midrange with a 5 inch cone speaker.  I have 3 different power sources Fisher, Denon and McIntosh and they all sound different piped through my K's.  

 

There are a lot of old Speakers I liked form the 80's and 90's.  I had an old pair of ported CV's with the 12" woofer , cone mid and horn tweeter, they never missed a beat until the foam rot hit. I also had a few models of the old Norman Lab brand, kind of the same tower take everyone else was building at the time.  I thought all those were great until I came across a pair of Cornwall II's.  Its all been about horns since then back in '87.  Nothing is more revealing or capable of singling out instruments in a recording than a decent mid horn according to my ears.

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On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 8:28 AM, Carey said:

1 st day listening to the CV's....only 1 thing to say "Wow" Mids, highs, and bass are truly impressive. Speakers are well balanced. All you CV haters out there you must take a listen to these superbly sounding speakers prior to judging. These monsters shake the house and my neighbors house to a new level. And they are not even broken in yet....Hate to say it... but these XLS 215's may sound better than my cornwall 3's. Must keep in mind that the Mark Levinsion 532h will make any speaker sound good. I will post more comments in the weeks ahead.

So first of all the CV's are not as sensitive as the Cornwall's. You will need a lot of power to get them shaking. I managed to turn the volume up to 80 on my pre today it tops out at 100. And still 0 distortion....Wow.... I now have to Velcro all the pictures on the second level in my house to prevent movement :D. In  addition all pots, pans, plates, glasses, and light fixtures on level 2 in my house and level 3 are now shaking and moving. Now if I could only get the Corwall 3's in the same room as the CV's :wink:...Still love my Cornwall's but the CV's are impressive. Pics are in my profile. Cheers music fans!

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Guest wdecho
22 hours ago, Frzninvt said:

So in a blind listening test you will be able to discern the amplifier or amplifier's topology?  A company (I forget the name) offered a rather large sum of money for someone to prove this to them. 

Maybe not, but I can tell which I like better between acoustic or electronic music. If you hearing is half way decent you should be able yourself. Many buy their amplifiers at Wal-mart and cannot hear any difference between theirs and more expensive ones. Perhaps you are one of those. There are those that can hear the difference in a positive phase 2nd harmonic in an amplifier and a negative phase 2nd harmonic. I have no reason to doubt them when they repeatedly can. PWK once stated only a fraction of 1% can hear what he hears. You are probably posting what you have read and having built over 30 amplifiers I can post what I know. 

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