Super Heresy build question

[mopardave]

Has anyone experimented with fiber fill instead of the foam or no foam or fiber fill.  Curious to the findings.  Gonna start the build soon and just wondered if anything is needed for dampening in this build.

[pzannucci]

It all depends on your ear and how much you intend on putting in and the placement in the box.  You should just get some inexpensive eggcrate / mattress foam and polyfill batting from a place like Walmart or Hobby Lobby then experiment.  Shouldn't cost you over $10.

[jjptkd]

I put poly-fil in my HIP's and it didn't seem to help much, still almost no bass. I've used it in larger subwoofer cabinets and seemed to notice an improvement though. I agree with PZ, stuff is cheap enough and easy to get, experiment a little and see what works best for you. 

[DizRotus]

It seems to me two different issues are being discussed as if they are one issue.

1. Adding poly fill to a sealed cabinet can have the effect of lowering bass by effectively “increasing” the volume of the sealed enclosure; and
2. Adding “egg crate” foam to a ported cabinet can tame resonances, while reducing higher frequencies from being emitted through the port.

 

As designed by @ClaudeJ1, a “Super Heresy” has a port and foam added to the interior cabinet walls, in addition to other modifications.  That is a different process than stuffing a sealed cabinet in an attempt to increase bass output.  At least that’s my understanding and how my Supers are constructed.

 

I also added egg crate foam to the interior of my son’s sealed Heresys to tame resonances, not to get more bass.

 

My brother’s sealed KP-201s have a sheet of open cell foam loose inside each cabinet, presumably to address resonances and to possibly increase bass.  I’ve never listened to them with the foam removed.

 

[mopardave]

I think the eggcrate foam is a little more than $10.   I found a big enough chunk to do both Heresy's for $34.  Think i'll order it.  Thanks guys

[DizRotus]

I’m fortunate to be near Foam N More, where I can get egg crate foam for ~$0.75/sq ft.   Another deal from them is wedge shaped speaker pads.  They take a rectangle of closed cell foam ~4 inches thick and cut it into two wedge shaped pieces.  The Super  Heresys are sitting on a pair.

 

 

[ClaudeJ1]

2 hours ago, jjptkd said:

I put poly-fil in my HIP's and it didn't seem to help much, still almost no bass. I've used it in larger subwoofer cabinets and seemed to notice an improvement though. I agree with PZ, stuff is cheap enough and easy to get, experiment a little and see what works best for you. 

You can convert your HIP to a Super Heresy, so easily. Just put a B network in there and some foam, and you are done.

[ClaudeJ1]

2 hours ago, DizRotus said:

It seems to me two different issues are being discussed as if they are one issue.

1. Adding poly fill to a sealed cabinet can have the effect of lowering bass by effectively “increasing” the volume of the sealed enclosure; and
2. Adding “egg crate” foam to a ported cabinet can tame resonances, while reducing higher frequencies from being emitted through the port.

 

As designed by @ClaudeJ1, a “Super Heresy” has a port and foam added to the interior cabinet walls, in addition to other modifications.  That is a different process than stuffing a sealed cabinet in an attempt to increase bass output.  At least that’s my understanding and how my Supers are constructed.

 

I also added egg crate foam to the interior of my son’s sealed Heresys to tame resonances, not to get more bass.

 

My brother’s sealed KP-201s have a sheet of open cell foam loose inside each cabinet, presumably to address resonances and to possibly increase bass.  I’ve never listened to them with the foam removed.

 

jjptkd: #2 is especially correct. You can't "increase bass" by adding a RESISTIVE element to the box. It doesn't work that way. You are simply converting part of the sound into HEAT.

 

The ONLY way to EFFECTIVELY increase bass while USING THE SAME BOX is to change the woofer to a K-42 (or equivalent), with a lower Qes, then PORT to use the back side of the cone to compensate for the increase in MIDRANGE. Basically the K42 puts out 3 db more output than a K22, which is optimum for a sealed box. However, the high BL product of the K42 in a sealed box simply means more MIDRANGE output and NOT more bass. You get that back by PORTING and using the back side of the cone. 

 

On a Heresy 1, after a K42 (or Eminence Delta Pro 12A) UPGRADE, then, ported into a Super Heresy, you simply change the Heresy's BALANCING Network into a Cornwall B (or B2) to change the ATTENUATION of the K55 and K77. This way, you are making BOTH 3 db louder and changing the CAPACITOR values to compensate for the decreased IMPEDANCE in order to retain the same crossover frequencies.

 

Making a quasi Super Heresy out of a HIP box requires much LESS work because you are going in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION!!  It's ALREADY ported, but the mids and highs are just way too loud for HOME HI FI use. So, the key is to KNOCK DOWN the Mid and Tweet OUTPUT and ABSORB the excess midrange from the K42 by using FOAM, which still allows great output below 130 Hz by using about 3 db more AMPLIFIER POWER (1 watt instead of Half Watt). Basically, the darn things are "screaming loud" above 130 Hz. because they have the same AA network as the Khorns of tha ERA!!! So converting to a Cornwall B network with some foam solves all that and RE-BALANCES the system to operate with ADEQUATE bass output for most listeners, with or without subs.

[jjptkd]

21 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

You can convert your HIP to a Super Heresy, so easily. Just put a B network in there and some foam, and you are done.

 

I already lowered the taps as you suggested some time ago and it did help some. I really love the sound of the HIP's especially with the Crites tweeters and mid drivers but the bass is severely lacking. I think I'll get some of the egg crate foam to experiment with but I'm already heavily invested in moving my parts to a 15" speaker cabinet, which will also allow me to use a larger mid horn. 

[ClaudeJ1]

4 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

 

I already lowered the taps as you suggested some time ago and it did help some. I really love the sound of the HIP's especially with the Crites tweeters and mid drivers but the bass is severely lacking. I think I'll get some of the egg crate foam to experiment with but I'm already heavily invested in moving my parts to a 15" speaker cabinet, which will also allow me to use a larger mid horn. 

Well, alrighty then. This is not longer a Super Heresy as a subject line. Just start another thread on this radically different subject, as we are now talking Apples and Oranges and not specifically related.

[pzannucci]

50 minutes ago, mopardave said:

I think the eggcrate foam is a little more than $10.   I found a big enough chunk to do both Heresy's for $34.  Think i'll order it.  Thanks guys

Doesn't need to be eggcrate foam, just opencell which will act similar to batting.  That's why I use mattress pads.  $8 at Walmart.  It would need to be very "opencell" to fill a cabinet as most foams are not as open as batting or similar materials.

So yes, would agree on the foam unless just lining the cabinet with opencell.  Something like 30ppi foam would be similar to batting though seriously much more expensive.

[pzannucci]

Bottom line is to try it and see which works for what you want.  There are tradeoffs to trying to pretend your enclosure is larger with stuffing vs. making well damped appropriately sized cabinet.  Your ears can tell the difference.

[mopardave]

ok, just ordered some egg crate foam from amozon for $16.  12 12x12 pieces.   that should do it.

[mike stehr]

The use of polyfil can help tame a resonant peak or peaks of a woofer in a enclosure, if one doesn't have a way to port tune above the peak, or the means to build another enclosure of correct dimensions. 

[mopardave]

No fill going in these, just the egg crate foam.

[mopardave]

2 E Delta Pro 12A's on the way along with the 4" ports.    Just need the xo's now.    Gonna get them from Crites.   Not sure if i want to put the new Crites in my Cornwalls or the Super Heresy's as i have some up dated B's in the Cornwalls that work real nice as well.

[DizRotus]

I bought Bob’s 3636 autoformers, which adjust the squawkers in 1dB increments. You might want to consider two of those.  Ask Bob, @BEC, and/or Claude, @ClaudeJ1 about it.

[mopardave]

ok, thanks for that info.

[DizRotus]

Mt. Morris, where?

[DizRotus]

I may be wrong about this and welcome correction from @ClaudeJ1 and/or @BECThe stock H2 network’s autoformer attenuated the squawker by 10dB.  The switch to the Eminence Delta Pro 12As and the porting require modification to the network so the squawker and tweeter are in balance with the increased output of the ported Eminence woofer.  At Claude’s direction, the initial setting on the 3636 was at -4dB,  a 6dB difference from stock.  After listening to them in my space, I gradually attenuated the squawker at 1dB increments, I currently have them at -7dB, based solely on subjective impressions.  

 

Claude has offered to bring test equipment to “curve” the speakers to the space.  I plan to take him up on that kind offer next year.  In the meantime, I’ll experiment with integrating my 4 Lil’Mike Anarchy Exodus tapped horn subs powered by a pair of iNuke 1000dsp amps.  

 

It remains to be seen whether it will be worth the time and effort to ask the subs to perform double duty in the HT setup and for 2-channel listening.  The Supers sound very good without the subs, but I suspect that the added lowest bass might make the excellent Supers alone seem disappointing by comparison.

 

Do you plan to use subs with your Supers?