thebes Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 MM. LOMC, Hi-Output Moving Coil, Magnetos, stress-less copper winding, Moving Micro Cross, Moving Iron, it goes on and on. However, once you account for the mass your arm can handle, and type of cart your phono section can output, it really boils down to a choice between Elliptical and Fine-Line stylii. For those not in the know on this subject, an elliptical stylus is basically a bit rounded and sits higher in the groove. Fine-line is shaped more like the groove and sits deeper in the record. There are variations within these categories, hyper-elliptical, Shibata etc., but that's basically the way they break. Also, generally, elliptical is usually significantly cheaper than fine-line. Given my propensity to break needles, I've had a lot of various carts and stylii on my table over the last 12 years or so, and I've informed some general impressions and conclusions on the two types. Surprisingly I'm coming down on the side of elliptical. Why? One simple, or not so simple, word: Musicality. Yup it's a big word, but to my mind the centerpiece of the whole listening experience. Sure I want all the other stuff, soundstage, depth, presence, detail, instrument position, you name it. Fact of the matter is, with any quality stereo system, and a decent cart you've already got all that stuff. And when it comes to the extra detail offered by fine-line, if you're running Khorns or Heritage, do you really need more detail? The music, the production values, the mixing, the engineering is already laid bare. So at the end of the day, what you really want is that last bit of magic, and that's musicality. IMO, that;s elliptical. It tends to roll things just a bit, provides what some people call "warm" and others deride as "rolled off". But that needle shape in the groove gets me groovin. Not that I'm done experimenting anyways. So what needles you? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubeHiFiNut Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Conical. Love the Denon DL-103. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbphoto Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I don't have a ton of comparisons but, IMHO, the Ortofon 2M blue elliptical is a great bang for the bitcoin. Lots of variables in play and many depend on your tonearm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Do you have any thoughts on stress on the vinyl from the two different profiles? FWIW. Back in the day at the college station the DJs would sometime catch the stylus on the felt of the turntable while cue-ing up a 45 and bent the cantilever. So we used the cheap conical sapphires. No diamond elliptical for such heavy duty. WMcD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 My cartridge stable isn't very big. I've been running a Denon DL-110 HOMC, Denon DL-103, Ortofon 2M Blue, and Klipsch MC7. These are all eliptical and oddly I like the 110 the best. I would like to try a fine line. Do you have any recommendations? What are you doing to these cartridges? I haven't broken one yet but I always use the tonearm lift.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubeHiFiNut Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 39 minutes ago, seti said: My cartridge stable isn't very big. I've been running a Denon DL-110 HOMC, Denon DL-103, Ortofon 2M Blue, and Klipsch MC7. These are all eliptical and oddly I like the 110 the best. I would like to try a fine line. Do you have any recommendations? What are you doing to these cartridges? I haven't broken one yet but I always use the tonearm lift.... Did you retip the Denon DL-103? The standard DL-103 uses a conical stylus, not elliptical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 7 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said: Did you retip the Denon DL-103? The standard DL-103 uses a conical stylus, not elliptical. Duh... You are right it is conical... I have been reluctant to go down the cart rolling rabbit hole. It is insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 24, 2018 Moderators Share Posted February 24, 2018 I like this guy https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parlophone1 Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 For long time I just played original conical Philips GP401. Then upgraded to Ortophone 2M Red. Mostly because it was the only one available localy at decent price an in compliance with the tonearm. Lost some detail of philips but as you said, somehow musicality improved. Then bought a decent turntable and the producer of the TT recommended micro ridge diamond, mostly because of record wear. So got Benz micro SM cartcart. Noticable improvement in every way plus in musicality. Additionally, we had a chance to compare Denon 103 with much more expensive cart in the same system. There were diferences in more detail, but in my opinion not woth the extra money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 forget shape... what about material? Ruby, Cactus, Metal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinmi Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I'm using the Ortofon 2M Black on one table and a Koetsu Black LOMC on the other. Both track a bit heavier than a lot of carts, resulting in less surface noise. I read somewhere that the fine line/ nude types are supposed to extract more detail from the groove. I think the synergy between all the components ( cart, tonearm, etc.) is more important overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubeHiFiNut Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 14 hours ago, seti said: Duh... You are right it is conical... I have been reluctant to go down the cart rolling rabbit hole. It is insane. Went down that path for years - spent lots of $$$$. Now I pretty much stick to the Denon DL-103. I know there are better "cartridges" out there but the 103 just makes beautiful music and beckons me to play more records. YMMV..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Just to make sure to keep a handle on audiophiles' wealth, a new trend in some brands of carts is the use of jeweled cantilevers! A few carts (Dynavector, Koetsu, Transfiguration) even have cantilevers made out of diamond. Funny how those prices went up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Yeah exotica is the cart world. Wish I could afford a Koetsu as they are things of beauty. I'd like to try the DL103S, Ortophon SPU, and I need a really good 78 cart. If I spend big money on a cartridge I'll wait for Dave Slagle of Intact Audio to release his cart. If it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 21 hours ago, WMcD said: Do you have any thoughts on stress on the vinyl from the two different profiles? FWIW. Back in the day at the college station the DJs would sometime catch the stylus on the felt of the turntable while cue-ing up a 45 and bent the cantilever. So we used the cheap conical sapphires. No diamond elliptical for such heavy duty. WMcD I really don't. Most of what I've read online suggests that fine line is better for the records. About 90% of my collection, however, is previously owned. If there's any gunk down at the bottom of the groove, I have this image in my mind of a farmer and his mule plowing a furrow, so I'm a bit nervous that I could actually be increasing wear by using a fine-line. Then there is the universal problem that people somehow think needles don't wear out. I know people who dug their turntables out of the closet when vinyl came back into fashion and continued to blissfully use their 1970's cart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 21 hours ago, seti said: What are you doing to these cartridges? I haven't broken one yet Silly Seti. I'm a Thebes, this is what I do, amongst many other things. Haven't you been paying any attention to my audio journey? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubeHiFiNut Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 21 minutes ago, thebes said: I really don't. Most of what I've read online suggests that fine line is better for the records. About 90% of my collection, however, is previously owned. If there's any gunk down at the bottom of the groove, I have this image in my mind of a farmer and his mule plowing a furrow, so I'm a bit nervous that I could actually be increasing wear by using a fine-line. Then there is the universal problem that people somehow think needles don't wear out. I know people who dug their turntables out of the closet when vinyl came back into fashion and continued to blissfully use their 1970's cart. If we knew what our previously owned albums were played on, we'd probably need therapy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 1 hour ago, thebes said: Silly Seti. I'm a Thebes, this is what I do, amongst many other things. Haven't you been paying any attention to my audio journey? I just thought you were exagerating.... LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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