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Dave A

Super MWM

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2 hours ago, Marvel said:

He made these in 2010 (?) and did some measurements, but as with the pics, all attachments disappeared.

 

38" wide x 32" deep x 23 " high.

 

@ClaudeJ1   did you ever model the larger LS? You were going to but you may not have gotten the horn dims.

 

Bruce

I'm not a fan of a big LaScala, simply because of the used FH-1 and SP-1 bins you can get. Besides, for 11 pieces of wood, simple construction, fewer folds,  and full use of the "corner air" in a room, the Quarter Pie is the best thing you can build from a cost, volume, and performance point of view. So I never bothered with a bigger and boxier LaScala.

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1 hour ago, jwc said:

I have off and on....back in the day...considered building those.

Gary Gillum, the co-patent hold with PWK on the MWM bin, told me his Son designed the 555 for John Allen. Never heard one and not a fan of the idea, since it's bigger, boxier, and won't extend as low as my Quarter Pie. But y'all go ahead and waste as much time as you want on that, but it won't be me.

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23 hours ago, Marvel said:

@Dave A   Just got a pic from kg4guy, of his building LS bins that are deeper and have the sides flare, making them also wider in the front. This also gets rid of parallel side channels. His old posts from around 2011 don't have pics attached anymore. I assume a forum upgrade ate them. The doghouse is standard LS size. I'll try to find the outside dims.

 

Bruce

IMG_4485.JPG.5fcccb6e8143141f3b53e4b4430f6ede.JPG.jpg

If they were good, he would have kept them. But that's just my opinion.

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On 12/20/2018 at 2:12 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

That would be a good choice also. The Inductive rolloff might affect the 400 Hz. output, but I'm trying to get Dave to cross at 300 Hz. or less if possible, so it could be inconsequential. Besides, he already has K-43's from John Allen as built by Gary Gillum, the co-patent holder on the MWM.

I just ran the sim with a 2.83 drive voltage on the B&C 15ps100-15 (since it's 8 ohms) vs. 2 volts for the K-43 that DaveA will be using. It's about 2-3 db less output at 400 Hz. but a slightly higher peak at 38 Hz. by about 2 db before rolloff. 

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16 hours ago, jwc said:

I have off and on....back in the day...considered building those.

The HPS-555 is only a 4 Ft. horn, vs. 5.5 feet for the Quarter Pie, which is roughly the same cubic feet of space in a totally different shape that fist neatly in a corner with no dead air space. The horn cutoff for the 555 is 70 Hz.(the 40 Hz. spec. is mostly BS on the site). The cutoff for the Quarter Pie is 51 Hz. but if I use the same BS method as the HPS site, it's 35-25 Hz.

 

The Super MWM is about a 9 ft. Horn. Go big or go home.

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18 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

The Super MWM is about a 9 ft. Horn. Go big or go home.

Can I go big and stay home? Picked up my 402 horns today!

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10 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

That's what the wife should be asking. 

If she is asking that I am not doing my job.

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6 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

If they were good, he would have kept them. But that's just my opinion.

 

That's pretty rich, even from you, sir. You have  rotated through a lot of  very good gear like it was all dirty laundry while doing your latest and greatest.

 

I believe he is a Danley rep and uses that gear. A bit pricier though. He sold the LLS to LA music producer Chris Clarke, who loved them. Don't know if he still has them.

 

I just brought the large LS up because some folks had asked about doing it. You have "improved" Heresy, Cornwall, MWM Klipsch speakers. Great! I'm happy for you. The MWM and Super MWM would be on my list if I had the room (I do, actually but have other things in mind and on my plate at the moment). So diss everything else that you haven't touched. I'm out for a while.

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6 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

The HPS-555 is only a 4 Ft. horn, vs. 5.5 feet for the Quarter Pie, which is roughly the same cubic feet of space in a totally different shape that fist neatly in a corner with no dead air space. The horn cutoff for the 555 is 70 Hz. The cutoff for the Quarter Pie is 51 Hz.

 

The Super MWM is about a 9 ft. Horn. Go big or go home.

Nope.  I was to build them 30 inch deep.  Scratched up many designs...never any to be over 30inch deep.

I owned 6 double stacked MWMs.  Love MWMs for sure.  Too deep for what I wanted in the end.  GAVE them all away.

 

Everybody is different.  At this stage for me.....I Dont need that deep of a horn.  I'm all for watching somebody else build huge stuff....press on.

 

 

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On 12/20/2018 at 5:35 PM, Marvel said:

@jwc   Do you still have any of that pro gear left... like the floor monitors with the 15s in them?

 

Bruce

Bruce.  The supply is gettin thinner.  All 12 verbally may be taken at this point.

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6 hours ago, Dave A said:

Can I go big and stay home? Picked up my 402 horns today!

Yes you can.  Congrats and enjoy.

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On 12/27/2018 at 4:17 AM, Marvel said:

 

Post deleted for being too "whiney" on a bad day.

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8 hours ago, jwc said:

Nope.  I was to build them 30 inch deep.  Scratched up many designs...never any to be over 30inch deep.

I owned 6 double stacked MWMs.  Love MWMs for sure.  Too deep for what I wanted in the end.  GAVE them all away.

 

Everybody is different.  At this stage for me.....I Dont need that deep of a horn.  I'm all for watching somebody else build huge stuff....press on.

 

 

The theoretical cutoff for an MWM is 47 Hz., perhaps 45 Hz. when you double up the "small" mouths. When I owned a bunch of singles, they all had a 55 Hz. peak, in my room, which was part of the appeal of their "sound." Still one of the best bass horns I ever owned, just didn't have the space to keep them. I remember talking to Gary Gillum about their design and he was surprised I didn't cross them at 500 Hz., but at the time, I used them to extend the bass on LaScalas, crossed at 150 Hz. and for that, they worked great. Then I started evolving into just about every horn in the used marketplace, just for fun and data!

 

No matter what horn you design, I found it difficult to make one go beyond a full decade, which is 3 1/2 octaves, without EQ. Physics is Physics, as you know.

CJstack1010web.jpg

WallSoundWeb.jpg

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15 hours ago, Dave A said:

Can I go big and stay home? Picked up my 402 horns today!

Ah, so now all you need is a 300 Hz. driver to go with the supers. I have a pair for you to play with! Like you, I can resist anything but temptation!!

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11 hours ago, Marvel said:

 

That's pretty rich, even from you, sir. You have  rotated through a lot of  very good gear like it was all dirty laundry while doing your latest and greatest.

 

I believe he is a Danley rep and uses that gear. A bit pricier though. He sold the LLS to LA music producer Chris Clarke, who loved them. Don't know if he still has them.

 

I just brought the large LS up because some folks had asked about doing it. You have "improved" Heresy, Cornwall, MWM Klipsch speakers. Great! I'm happy for you. The MWM and Super MWM would be on my list if I had the room (I do, actually but have other things in mind and on my plate at the moment). So diss everything else that you haven't touched. I'm out for a while.

Yes he still has them said that all the musicians  said it was one of the best sounding rooms they had been in not only because of the bins but that was part of it. 

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2 minutes ago, kg4guy said:

Yes he still has them said that all the musicians  said it was one of the best sounding rooms they had been in not only because of the bins but that was part of it. 

Design goal met. Good work.

 

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FWIW:

 

The MWM (MCM?) appears to be based on the embodiment shown in US Patent 4,210,223.

 

The bass horn in the patent has a Llamed of 23.3 inches.   This is the distance down the axis by which the area doubles.

 

The cutoff wavelength is determined by multiplying that by 18.1 for a result of 421 inches.  The cut off frequency fc for the horn  is therefore 13500/421 for a result of 32 Hz.  13500 is speed of sound in inches per second, of course.

 

Please recall the Bell Labs bass horn in the Symposium section of the Klipsch Papers.  That has an fc of 32 Hz also.  Just a coincidence?  

 

WMcD

 

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38 minutes ago, WMcD said:

FWIW:

 

The MWM (MCM?) appears to be based on the embodiment shown in US Patent 4.210,223.

 

The bass horn in the patent has a Llamed of 23.3 inches.   This is the distance down the axis by which the area doubles.

 

The cutoff wavelength is determined by multiplying that by 18.1 for a result of 421 inches.  The cut off frequency fc for the horn  is therefore 13500/421 for a result of 32 Hz.  13500 is speed of sound in inches per second, of course.

 

Please recall the Bell Labs bass horn in the Symposium section of the Klipsch Papers.  That has an fc of 32 Hz also.  Just a coincidence?  

 

WMcD

 

After messing around with 100's of horn designs in Hornresp over the last 9 years or so, I have found that the most important factor for low end cutoff is HORN LENGTH. The MWM is a 6 foot long horn. The Super MWM is 9 ft. long (my tapped horn subs are twice that at 18 ft.). The speed of sound at 1,128 feet per second divided by 6 feet (Klipsch MWM) yields the number "188." If you divided that by 4, you get the 1/4 wave response of the horn, which is 47 Hz. (with the inherent ripples from too small of a mouth, but that's another story for another time).

 

The math is simpler and the measured curves agree with the simulations in Hornresp quite closely, hence the confidence in the methods. That is how my Quarter Pie horn was designed (5.5 feet long/51 Hz.) as well as the Super MWM (1,128/9=125/4=31 Hz, which is the B string on a 5 or 6 string electric bass. We will know for sure in a few weeks when Dave is done with his Super MWM and acoustic measurements can verify. Making the horn taller than the MWM's 17 inches improves the simulated bass curve between 45-100 Hz., which is part of the 5x5 foot raw lumber subdivision consideration in the design, which can't be ignored. Yes, there's ripple in the "too small mouth" design, but it gets totally overwhelmed by room acousics below 300 Hz. which is the intended crossover into the midrange K402.

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