Running 2 Pair of Heresy A + B

[ishwash]

Crapola samola, this doesn't end with small speakers! My two pair Chorus II's together are freakin awesome!

So I guess 2 pair of LaScalas would just be hohum freakin awesome too! 

 

Walls of sound!!!

[kink56]

So really?  Taking say a 50 watt amp that has A and B speaker capability and using both the A and B speaker outputs yields a 100 watt amp? Or even a 75 watt amp?   Don't think so.  In fact the opposite is true.  The amp will clip much easier driving two sets of speakers.    Now there are amps that have separate power supplies for each set of speakers, that is a different story. 

 

 

When I go from two wheel drive to four wheel drive my engine's power is increased? Nope. 

 

Now I am not saying that using A + B speakers in this manner cannot or does not yield a better result one may be seeking.  

[JohnJ]

1 hour ago, kink56 said:

So really?  Taking say a 50 watt amp that has A and B speaker capability and using both the A and B speaker outputs yields a 100 watt amp? Or even a 75 watt amp?   Don't think so.  In fact the opposite is true.  The amp will clip much easier driving two sets of speakers.

If your stereo amp has A & B speaker outputs and can't push `em all at once, you need to find a good one.

If it states 100 watts rated minimum per channel it offers it's not gonna cause any undue stress unless you drive it hard all the time. Well, not on mine that I did that to for the past thirty years.

 

google it, you could learn what you're missing

 

 

[kink56]

I didn't say an amp cannot do it.  I am saying if your amp is 100 watts, running both speaker circuits A and B does not DOUBLE or increase the power of the amp.  Running two sets of speakers does not change the power output of an amp. But is DOES require more power than if you were to run just one set of speakers.     My contention are the statements running two sets of speakers increases the power of an amp   No, it DEMANDS more power from the amp.  That is not to say that a particular amp cannot supply the power that is required.     

[MEH Synergy]

Let's think about this, both A and B are connected internally.  How do I know?   They share a power supply.  What does that mean?  If you run both pair, you are essentially running your speakers parallel which decreases the impedance in half.   Two 8 ohm speakers makes a 4 ohm nominal load.   As long as the amp is designed to run at 4 ohms, you most surely WILL make more power.  Double?   More than likely not unless you have a beefy power supply.  This concept is done all the time in car stereo systems. 

[kink56]

I do not know if it works exactly like this proportion, but if you have a 100 watt amp and run one set of speaker at a certain position on the volume knob and say it uses 10 watts at your volume level.  Then you add the "B" set of speakers with the knob in the same position maybe now you are using 20 watts.    But that is not the same as doubling your amp's power, that is doubling the demand of power on your amp. 

[MEH Synergy]

Correct it is doubling the demand of the amp by halving the impedance.   Power will increase as the amps power supply dictates up until clipping.  There will also be increased efficiency from adding more speakers.  If I put two pair of 8 ohm speakers on my parasound amp right now in parallel, the power WILL double.   It depends on what your amp supports.  

[kink56]

Yes, if the impedance is cut in half and there is enough current capability in the amp the power will double, ohms law and all.  You can do this even without an A + B circuit.  You can run two sets of speakers off a single set of speaker outputs too. 

[wvu80]

All I know is 30 years ago when I had a receiver with A and B outputs, I could run A, or B, or A + B. 

 

A single pair of speakers on A sounded pretty good, very dynamic.  The same if I turned off A and ran only B with its own pair.  If I ran A + B I didn't like the sound which was now dull and flat.  There were no dynamics.  I liked running only one set of speakers at a time.

 

I believe this was because the available power was drawn by four speakers instead of two and therefore divided in half.

[ishwash]

The thread has deviated to a side debate. Certainly running two sets of speakers A + B cannot increase the power that an amp is capable of delivering; surely nobody was actually saying that.

 

I'll try to bring this back with this, my experience: If I use a 50 watt amp and play two sets of Super Heresy speakers the way I like listening to them, I can turn the volume to a level that pleases me...pretty damn loud...and that is what I want. If I take that same amp and try to run two pairs of speakers A + B, I cant' turn it as loud as I wish to hear it in my large listening room. That alone tells me that even with efficient Klipsch speakers I want to listen to them with at least a 100 watt amp if I am using current popular makes of solid state amps.

 

Anyway, right or wrong, I have convinced myself that using almost any two pair of all identical speakers, whether A + B or wired in parallel together, that the sound is superior, if not way superior, to listening to a single pair of the speakers alone, and it is true at all normal volume settings for either case. I mean other people listen and agree, there is pretty much no denying it.

[JohnJ]

kink you don't get it / don't wanna hear it

Of course an amp can't make more watts out of thin air.

Thus the /channel, and more speakers changes the impedance which raise the output that you utilize.

 

 

[jimjimbo]

4 hours ago, ishwash said:

using almost any two pair of all identical speakers, whether A + B or wired in parallel together, that the sound is superior,

Believe me,  they don't have to be identical speakers of course.  Try running a pair of Supers with Khorns, or La Scalas.

[wvu80]

23 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

kink you don't get it / don't wanna hear it

Of course an amp can't make more watts out of thin air.

Thus the /channel, and more speakers changes the impedance which raise the output that you utilize.

 

 

@kink56 is correct, but so are you.  Amps don't magically make more watts out of thin air as you say, but if you take an amp running an 8 Ohm load and then run a 4 Ohm load the 4 Ohm load will produce more power.  Ohm's law.

 

The amp producing the higher power rating at 4 Ohm ALWAYS had that power (at a stated level of distortion) but most of the older receivers only rated them at 8 Ohms.

 

Here is measured power output of a popular pro amp, the Behringer Inuke 3000:

 

Quote

 

Output Power:
No load max output voltage was 50Vrms per channel.

With resistive loads, power output at clipping was pretty darn close to:
300Wrms/8ohm/channel
600Wrms/4ohm/channel
1000Wrms/2ohm/channel
2000Wrms/4ohm/bridged

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/213071-behringer-inuke-nu3000-measurements.html

 

 

 

 

[ishwash]

1 hour ago, jimjimbo said:

Believe me,  they don't have to be identical speakers of course.  Try running a pair of Supers with Khorns, or La Scalas.

I am sure that's true, I just haven't done it. And I'm only trying to say that two pair of the least expensive Heritage speakers or 2 pair of Super Heresy's make a dandy stereo system. The big Heritage speakers are so expensive that they end up being a once in a lifetime purchase for most people. I could only buy them at an advanced age of senility...hahaha...when I got so I felt I ought to leave my kids great speakers instead of dollars...smile...

 

Well, maybe I was trying to say more because even with the two pair of Chorus, there is just seemingly so much more with two pair than one. 

 

With a pair of SH supplementing a pair of LaScalas or KHorns, I can reason that as being logical.

 

 

[ishwash]

Sometimes I forget why I do something. The reason I want them identical is I don't have to mess with the balance knob or an L-pad to balance them. Yes I know there will always be a bit of difference even if they are built identical, but the difference in efficiency of one pair versus the other or one speaker versus the other within a pair is minor thus hard to distinguish.

[ishwash]

@jimjimbo (you responded in a different thread that this was old news  or something similar, I believe) and @Emile (said this was old news) and @ClaudeJ1 (didn't say, but I'd like his comments...oh yeah, he said a funny Quadraphonic remark)…...other comments are also very welcome.

 

I still think there is more to this than meets the eye...ur, I mean ear...

 

Emile and JimJimbo's situation re having done two pair per channel I believe involved dissimilar sets of speakers. When two dissimilar sets of speakers such as a Heresy and a LaScala or whatever, even Paul Klipsch's Heresy's with his KHorns, are used on right and left channel, are they balanced?  Is there a big old hairy, complex balancing network at work controlling the output of these two sets of dissimilar speakers so you are getting a sweet sound situation? I think not. You are placed in a situation in which you are probably fiddling with balance knobs, or you have installed Lpads and are constantly messing with them trying to attain some sort of balance. I guess you could be using a fancy 7.0 theater amplifier, I suppose, but I really doubt that too.

 

My two pair of identical Super Heresy,  or two pair of Chorus, or my two pair of Cornscalas that I tested with my ears, yes, Claude...haha...with my ears, are balanced, and they remain so at all volume settings, assuming their individual crossovers are doing what they are supposed to do. I submit that this is not the same as "what every Klipsch person already knows about", at least the ones who think they have experienced the Walls of Sound with their setups using dissimilar sets of speakers.

 

Now, Emile, the concert stages where they pile up lots of the same speakers may be balanced, but do we really know how they are doing what they are doing?

 

I say that 2-channel people are missing a good bet when they do not consider using two pairs of identical speakers in and A and B situation, especially if the speakers are capable of reproducing the full spectrum of audible sound. Synergism at work, or am I just a bit drunk on my own BS...?

[ClaudeJ1]

On 7/28/2018 at 9:13 AM, ishwash said:

Dynaco used to advertise this back in the day in an effort to sell more of their little bookshelf A25's. They would even show in their ad a batch of maybe 5 stacked A25's for each left and right channel and expound about how great it sounds

Looks to me like they were trying to design what has now become the norm for PA system......................a line array of speaker boxes..................but there a phase issues that the big Danley synergy horns totally avoid. In fact, Klipsch used a huge stack of the "air suspension type" speakers in an ad to demonstrate how much lower distortion horns were as equivalents to a huge stack of speaker boxes. It looked ridiculous at the time, but it's not standard in auditoriums, being replaced by Danley Synergy Horns.

[Marvel]

^^^ What he said... You will get phasing and interference issues running multiple pairs of speakers.

[ishwash]

Why does Joe Bonamassa employ two drummers who for the most part duplicate each other playing his music. Could it be because it sounds a lot better?  

[jimjimbo]

18 minutes ago, ishwash said:

Why does Joe Bonamassa employ two drummers who for the most part duplicate each other playing his music. Could it be because it sounds a lot better?  

The only time I have seen him with two drummers was for his shows at The Royal Albert Hall, which was several years ago.  Every other show I've seen he has had a single drummer.  And yes, that show was special for sure.