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Chris A

An Unofficial Klipsch Jubilee Buyer's Guide

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As the OP to this thread: there are no real passive crossovers for 3-way Jubilees.  If someone says there are, ask for your money back.

 

Chris

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On 9/27/2020 at 2:17 PM, Chris A said:

One of the things that I've noticed over time: once Jubs are dialed in for a particular owner's room placement, I generally don't hear from the owners again (i.e., the line generally goes dead). Apparently these people aren't having to spend time on their loudspeakers...

 

Chris

 

Long time lurker here's finally jumping in. :) I hope to own a pair of Jubilees in the not too distant future.

 

I've never tried an active crossover, and I was wondering, are there any concerns about going from a DAC to an ADC back to a DAC again? Because then it seems you're relying on the DAC implementation of your DSP unit to match the quality of your source DAC (if you want to get into audio nervosa). 

 

I totally get the advantages surrounding the limitless control the DSP provides, and even the ability to mix and match amps (tubes for HF and SS for LF for example). 

 

Aside from costs and setup, just curious if there are any other considerations wrt active crossovers?

 

Thanks

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17 hours ago, st1n said:

...are there any concerns about going from a DAC to an ADC back to a DAC again?...

Not in my experience.  It is the most transparent process that I've heard.  Of course, if you're really concerned about this you could go to the Xilica XD series. (I'm not--I've been running various DSP crossovers for 13+ years, and even have used digital-input DSP crossovers, and I can tell you that the I can't tell the difference between analog input and digital input DSP crossovers.)  I'm sure that there are those here that say they can--but I'd immediately challenge them to a blind A-B test to see if they can really hear the difference. 

 

17 hours ago, st1n said:

...Aside from costs and setup, just curious if there are any other considerations wrt active crossovers?...

 

I find that the noise floor of the DSP crossover, combined with the word length/internal data rate (24 bits/96 kHz) is much more important, in my experience.  (Note that I'm not talking about the el cheapo DSP crossovers from Behringer or dbx DriveRack (the "PA"), etc., or perhaps the miniDSP models--which have a higher noise floor.)  Noise floor and digital resolution (i.e., 96/24) are the discriminators--in my experience.  I'd stick to Xilica if going down the Jubilee path--and avoid the higher noise miniDSPs. 

 

Besides the loudspeakers themselves, the DSP crossover is perhaps the second most important piece to pay attention to. 

 

If you're going to skimp on something up-front, I'd do it with the preamp or the other upstream electronics--not the DSP crossover.  But once you get to the quality level of a Xilica, you really need not spend any more money on DSP crossovers.  You could go to the Xilica XD series, but then you'd have the issue of S/PDIF to AES/EBU conversion--and very little in terms of sound quality improvement that you can actually hear. 

 

I would recommend a good quality class AB or class A amplifier--and not a class D, unless you can do an A-B comparison with a good class AB or A amplifier to verify its sound quality.  For instance, I don't personally recommend Hypex FusionAmps with the Jubilees (or any other Hypex class D models, for that matter).  You're likely going to hear issues with dialed-in Jubilees and class D amplifiers (...and I'm actually very sorry to have to report this).  In my conversations with Nelson Pass over this issue (i.e., class D), the problem appears to be centered on the amount of negative feedback that the class D amplifiers use

 

fig_10_distortion_spectrum_vs_feedback.p

 

Chris

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By the way, using balanced connections (XLR, Euro/Phoenix, etc.) between the preamp and DSP crossover, and then to the amplifiers, is a pretty big deal.  The Jubilee is something like 105 dB/2.83 v loudspeaker (for real), so you're going to hear the noise floors of unbalanced (RCA) connections (common mode...a.k.a., power supply noise).  That's one reason why I recommend used Crown D-75A and D-45 amplifiers for those that wish to control costs initially (...or long term...) because of their balanced XLR inputs.  Same thing for a preamp--you might look around for a balanced output connection preamp if you have any noise issues with the Jubilees after dialing them in.  Of course, if you use S/PDIF or perhaps AES/EBU connections, then the noise issue from the preamp is completely solved.

 

Chris

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Welcome to the forum.

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23 hours ago, Chris A said:

Welcome to the forum.

Thank you, and thank you for the detailed reply! That's a relief to hear.

 

It's just one of those audio nervosa things that I've heard for awhile now.. the less you can have in the signal path, the better (generally). 😛

Audiophiles like to talk about how preamps and DACs effect many different sonic aspects such as soundstage, timbre, texture, and other hyperbolic phrases. And, I've noticed differences when comparing passive vs tube vs solid state preamps.

 

Right now I use a pi2AES --> AES --> Schiit Yggy --> Pioneer Exclusive C3 Preamp. It just makes me wonder if, down the road with the Jubilees, it'd make more sense to essentially use the DSP unit as both a DAC & preamp to remove redundancies? It seems like there'd probably be little to nothing lost in doing so, and I could totally see this become more mainstream in HiFi... hmmm. 🤔

 

Regarding balanced to the amplifiers -- I have a 300B SET, Pioneer M22& M4 (Class A), and am considering building one of Nelson's DIY VFET designs down the road. All of these are single ended. I don't notice any noise from the power amp when running them through Heresy's, but 105 db/2.83V is definitely a lot more sensitive lol. I do notice very slight noise from my preamp if I get within a foot or so of the speaker, so that could be an issue with the Jubilees. 😕 

It'd be another year or so before I make a move up to them, but it's always nice to try and consider what an upgrade path would look like ahead of time.

 

Thanks again for the tips!

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On 4/21/2021 at 5:54 PM, st1n said:

Right now I use a pi2AES --> AES --> Schiit Yggy --> Pioneer Exclusive C3 Preamp. It just makes me wonder if, down the road with the Jubilees, it'd make more sense to essentially use the DSP unit as both a DAC & preamp to remove redundancies? It seems like there'd probably be little to nothing lost in doing so, and I could totally see this become more mainstream in HiFi... hmmm. 🤔

Essentially, using a DSP crossover with digital input(s) would eliminate the need for DACs.  So you'd need something like a player/streamer and/or PC to serve the digital files, some form of digital-to-digital converter to handle the PCM-->S/DIF or AES/EBU transition (or a preamp/processor if using more than two channel stereo, or something like DSD files from SACDs, etc.), and amplifier channels. You can also do it using a PC and a PCIe-->AES/EBU card to eliminate the preamp and digital converter.

 

On 4/21/2021 at 5:54 PM, st1n said:

Regarding balanced to the amplifiers -- I have a 300B SET, Pioneer M22& M4 (Class A), and am considering building one of Nelson's DIY VFET designs down the road. All of these are single ended. I don't notice any noise from the power amp when running them through Heresy's, but 105 db/2.83V is definitely a lot more sensitive lol. I do notice very slight noise from my preamp if I get within a foot or so of the speaker, so that could be an issue with the Jubilees. 😕 

Not necessarily.  The issue is more than likely the unbalanced connections, not the amplifiers themselves.  Anything from Nelson Pass seems to do very well with Jubilees.

 

On 4/21/2021 at 5:54 PM, st1n said:

It'd be another year or so before I make a move up to them, but it's always nice to try and consider what an upgrade path would look like ahead of time.

FYI: remember that the price of "Jubilees" is going up from ~$7-8K per pair (without Xilica) to $35K (USD) per pair with DSP crossover. 

 

If you're going to wait, then you'd have to take your chances with buying used, and I'm not sure how many of the ~50-75 pairs of home two-way Jubilees are going to be around for sale (since the compression drivers on all of the existing Jubs can be easily upgraded to something like Celestions, etc.).  That leaves the bass bin changes, and I'm pretty sure that the new bass bin is not going to be reason enough to sell existing Jubilees, i.e., it's better to use a separate set of subwoofers, anyway, so even if sub-32 Hz performance of the new Jubilee bass bins is real, I don't believe that's going to be a big enough enticement for any existing owner to want to "upgrade".  I know that for me, the extreme price differential alone puts them out of consideration.  I can easily do a better job myself with DIY K-402-MEHs in a 5.2 array for /10th to 1/5th the price per loudspeaker, depending on the cost of the drivers.  YMMV.

 

So the bottom line is...if you want a current two-way home version Jubilee from the professional line, now is the time to buy from the remaining stock (if any still exist).  Otherwise, you're going to have to compete for the used Jubilees that come up for sale--very occasionally (like one set every two-three years--or perhaps less often).  Even if you had to take out a loan now, it might be better now to avoid that huge price increase that's coming in 2-3 months from the date of this post.

 

Chris

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Jubilees (original style) are now $20,000 pr.

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it's Been 20k$ for quite a while ------on Ebay --they raised the price  from 15k$ to 20k$

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I have reason to believe that the prices that you're talking about are inflated.  I'd be pretty disappointed if that was the current price from our favorite Jubilee dealer.

 

Chris

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55 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I have reason to believe that the prices that you're talking about are inflated.  I'd be pretty disappointed if that IS the current price from our favorite Jubilee dealer.

 

Chris

it is true... just asked last week before I spent the allocated money on something else.

 

reason... 'last two NEW pairs on earth'

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That's too bad...  I hope he reconsiders.

 

Chris

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I think there is some confusion being generated. 

 

First, the prices that some have been seeing may include fairly expensive DSP crossovers and veneer (which may or may not have been done at the factory vs at the vendor's own shop). There are other options on the DSP cost and  adding veneer (no mater how nice you think it looks) is probably not going to give it instant  WAF (grill cloth is still needed etc)

 

Second, there is more than one vendor out there. Although it has been several years (and things may have changed), I purchased my gear (K-402 horns with drivers) from American Cinema Equipment. At the time, I was steered to them (by someone who "knows"). The service was excellent. Again, this was a number of years ago. 

 

I may inadvertently be adding more confusion to this conversation since my experience and knowledge are somewhat limited.

 

I definitely agree  that the current configuration of the Jubilee represents a considerable value. At $7000-8000, the performance per dollar is a fantastic deal. Making the cabinet wider and possibly deeper means it no longer has the footprint of a Klipschorn. I think this is a real mistake IMHO. Leaving the tweeter horn naked, further limits the number of potential buyers. As far as the possibility that the price will be mid 30k range, this is incomprehensible to my small brain. Perhaps there is a market out there, but that is a major chunk of change.  Let me be clear that I am biased and don't think the current configuration needs to be changed. I like the way they sound. I think I will go give a listen right now ....

 

-Tom

 

 

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8 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

I may inadvertently be adding more confusion to this conversation since my experience and knowledge are somewhat limited.

This is likely, in this particular case.

 

I guess all human tendencies drive toward this sort of thing if left on their own.  Good businesses tend to become weighted down by inefficiencies and frankly...not working as hard as they once did.  Other companies work hard to keep their rates and prices down, and cater to a loyal clientele. I can think of a few examples of this.  By and large, those companies are still around, while the former ones--not so much.

 

Chris

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The sad part is poor Schu he has been wanting to get Jubes for a number of years now.

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5 minutes ago, Chris A said:

This is likely, in this particular case.

Well, perhaps you would like to share your insights since the supply of Jubilees is drying up and the folks who are truly interested may get stuck. 

I was only trying to be helpful since there is so much clutter out there regarding price and availability.

-Tom

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our favorite seller has quoted me that value range as above... before. now with production coming to an end, this is no longer the case.

 

I probably missed the boat until someone wants to sell a used pair... I can't pay 20k for a speaker I could get for 9k a year ago.

 

I am okay with my current set up.

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On 4/24/2021 at 4:48 PM, Chris A said:

 

If you're going to wait, then you'd have to take your chances with buying used, and I'm not sure how many of the ~50-75 pairs of home two-way Jubilees are going to be around for sale (since the compression drivers on all of the existing Jubs can be easily upgraded to something like Celestions, etc.). That leaves the bass bin changes, and I'm pretty sure that the new bass bin is not going to be reason enough to sell existing Jubilees, i.e., it's better to use a separate set of subwoofers, anyway, so even if sub-32 Hz performance of the new Jubilee bass bins is real, I don't believe that's going to be a big enough enticement for any existing owner to want to "upgrade".  I know that for me, the extreme price differential alone puts them out of consideration.  I can easily do a better job myself with DIY K-402-MEHs in a 5.2 array for /10th to 1/5th the price per loudspeaker, depending on the cost of the drivers.  YMMV.

It’s pretty interesting to see how confident you are in something that you really have no knowledge of.....

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8 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:
Quote

If you're going to wait, then you'd have to take your chances with buying used, and I'm not sure how many of the ~50-75 pairs of home two-way Jubilees are going to be around for sale (since the compression drivers on all of the existing Jubs can be easily upgraded to something like Celestions, etc.). That leaves the bass bin changes, and I'm pretty sure that the new bass bin is not going to be reason enough to sell existing Jubilees, i.e., it's better to use a separate set of subwoofers, anyway, so even if sub-32 Hz performance of the new Jubilee bass bins is real, I don't believe that's going to be a big enough enticement for any existing owner to want to "upgrade".  I know that for me, the extreme price differential alone puts them out of consideration.  I can easily do a better job myself with DIY K-402-MEHs in a 5.2 array for /10th to 1/5th the price per loudspeaker, depending on the cost of the drivers.  YMMV.

 

It’s pretty interesting to see how confident you are in something that you really have no knowledge of.....

 

How about being a little more specific, Roy, since you quoted a fairly large block of text?  What is it, specifically, that you take issue with--my opinions? 

 

So let's take my statements, one by one, that you quoted above and address them one-at-a-time:

  1. So you're implying now that the current two-way professional version of the Jubilee with the KPT-KHJ-LF bass bins is not "going away" and that the price isn't going to leap from perhaps $10K with Xilica XP and good drivers (replacing the K-691s), to $35K (all USD)?  That's part of me "having no knowledge of"?
     
  2. I do know that paying $20K for a current pair of professional (cinema version) two-way Jubilees that someone might have in stock as leftovers is not something that I'd recommend, since no additional value has been provided...as when they were at half that price (for over 10 years).  That certainly looks like price gouging to me, but I would guess that's not your opinion.  It is my opinion on the subject of price increases without added support or explanation anything other than the phrase "these are the last two new Jubilees that are for sale" (so he's trying to increase the price for them based on that alone). That's 2x price over what appears to be a reasonable price based on historical information.  Do you disagree with my opinion on this particular point?  I would guess you do, based on the place of your current employment.  That's perhaps your opinion vs. mine, however.
     
  3. As far as the use of a separate set of subwoofers + bass bins to lower the AM distortion of the setup, this is physics (i.e., facts), which I don't really argue.  If you're saying that breaking up the passband of the bass bin with additional subwoofers does not limit the AM distortion of the bass bin at higher frequencies, then I can say that I'm pretty confident I'll stick to what I said. 
     
  4. So you take issue with my assessment that the performance increase of the new vented-in-horn bass bins will offset an already stated $25K price increase from your marketing/sales guys (with upper management approval)--that most people here that look at that will not option to buy a pair at that "new and better (for Klipsch) price".  You're on for a Tex-Mex dinner in Hope, AR at a mutually agreeable time and place of your (or my) choosing, whomever wins the bet of "more than 10 present Jubilee owners make the switch to the new yet-to-be-released version of the Jubilee within 2 years, you win and I owe you a Tex-Mex dinner in Hope (assuming it can be had).  Otherwise, I win and you owe me a Tex-Mex dinner."  Don't worry--I can't eat a lot of food like the last time we saw each other 12 years ago, so my dinner will be a cheap bet.
     
  5. So you're saying that, for me, that the price differential doesn't put the new Jubilee version out of consideration?  I win that bet.
     
  6. So you're saying that, for me, the MEH version (with my selection of drivers and DSP crossover support) in a 5.2 array in my living room isn't going to be a match for two of your $35K new Jubilees?  I win again, since I can't fit 5 surround Jubilees into my listening room.

Is there something that I missed, above, that you were implying in your comment?

 

Chris

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