New LaScala drivers and horns compatible with vintage?

[Deang]

14 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

In a LaScala or, especially, in a Cornwall, one can fit DaveA's larger MAHL with the superior, and less expensive B&C DE-10 driver, which can cross over as low as 2 Khz with a high order slope. So one can use a plain, older K55 and simply choke off the top end (thereby reducing the 9 Khz. peak that rears it's ugly head) without having to upgrade to a dual phase plug driver. Personally, I would choose a Xover point that matches the POLARS closely between the two, but that's beyond the scope of this text.

We've had this conversaton before, but I can't remember your reasoning as to why the de-10 is "superior". On the same horn, it doesn't measure as well, weighs more, and appears to be too large to act as a drop in replacement. It's also hotter than the de-120, and will need to be attenuated more. 

 

Bob and me deal with people who often say, "I just want them to sound the way they did when I bought them". If they hate the Klipsch sound, I send them to ALK. I sometimes recommend going with a different loudspeaker -- should I send them to you for that? 🙂

[ClaudeJ1]

9 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

Claude, this is an interesting simulation. I assume it is for a LaScala cabinet. Certainly, it allows one to raise the crossover point a little and save the midrange from having to go so low. It might even help getting the crossover to a region where the polar dispersion is more similar. 

Correct. It's a LaScala simulation, otherwise I would not have posted it. I discovered that I liked the K-43 better than the K33 (when I first heard it with test recordings) in the LS because the midrange detail was soooooooo much better. The midrange of the 15C is even better yet than both of the K's as you can see from the curves, but because it can be had for less than $100, it's a no brainer, especially since it should be against the law to operate a LaScala wihout a Subwoofer, regardless of which driver you have. So the bass below it's 104 Hz. cutoff should not matter as much as the midrange ("Where we live".....PWK).

[ClaudeJ1]

15 hours ago, Deang said:

We've had this conversaton before, but I can't remember your reasoning as to why the de-10 is "superior". On the same horn, it doesn't measure as well, weighs more, and appears to be too large to act as a drop in replacement. It's also hotter than the de-120, and will need to be attenuated more. 

 

Bob and me deal with people who often say, "I just want them to sound the way they did when I bought them". If they hate the Klipsch sound, I send them to ALK. I sometimes recommend going with a different loudspeaker -- should I send them to you for that? 🙂

I have owned, tested, and listened to them all. The DE-10 is flatter, has a wider band, can cross lower, and sounds better than the DE-120, but REQUIRES DaveA's LARGER MAHL to do it's thing (I'm thinking it will be in the Super Cornwall at the end of my quest for a better mod). The DE-120 is best on the smaller MAHL. Yes I have tried the Faitals, Eminences, etc. too. The only other one I would even consider for the small MAHL would be the DE-110. I can only provide data and my listening impressions. Otherwise, it's your ears and your money. I can provide data if you will start another thread so we don't crap on this one.

[Dave A]

2 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I have owned, tested, and listened to them all. The DE-10 is flatter, has a wider band, can cross lower, and sounds better than the DE-120, but REQUIRES DaveA's LARGER MAHL to do it's thing (I'm thinking it will be in the Super Cornwall at the end of my quest for a better mod). The DE-120 is best on the smaller MAHL. Yes I have tried the Faitals, Eminences, etc. too. The only other one I would even consider for the small MAHL would be the DE-110. I can only provide data and my listening impressions. Otherwise, it's your ears and your money. I can provide data if you will start another thread so we don't crap on this one.

Larger lens is right so unless you rebuild the top part of a La Scala you must use the smaller MAHL and DE120 on La Scalas. I did rebuild an LSI recently and made it a two piece (bass bin with 25mm Baltic Birch  sides) so it could perform as a sort of test bed for using the larger MAHL + DE10 and also to build a two way with a horn similar to the K-510 to see how they do. I have done the K-400 + K-55-V soldered lug and large MAHL + DE10 so far and once I added an L-Pad to the DE10 it is the finest sounding LSI or La Scala I have ever heard. Stock AA build with zeners removed and Sonicaps on the crossovers so nothing fancy there. K-43's were reused since I prefer these over the K-33's. Never tried the woofer you guys are talking about so that will be next on the list to do.

[ClaudeJ1]

10 hours ago, jason str said:

 

Have you tried using the woofer in your La Scala's ?

 

Measured it ?

 

Spent time listening to it ?

 

I have and gave my honest opinion, take it or leave it.

 

 

Jason, once again, it's you, the DOER/builder of actual horns vs. another "theorist," who are a dime a dozen around these parts.

[ClaudeJ1]

9 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

Claude, this is an interesting simulation. I assume it is for a LaScala cabinet. Certainly, it allows one to raise the crossover point a little and save the midrange from having to go so low. It might even help getting the crossover to a region where the polar dispersion is more similar. 

The simulation was done AFTER I had put K-43's in the LaScala cabinet and heard a "night and day" difference in guitar, sax, female vocals, etc. DETAIL vs. the K-33's that were removed. The 15C goes even further in the micro detail department in that short horn!! (and in my Quarter Pie). It's just a great driver for the money.

[PrestonTom]

5 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Jason, once again, it's you, the DOER/builder of actual horns vs. another "theorist," who are a dime a dozen around these parts.

Well, thank you Claude for putting me in the "dime a dozen" category. 

I guess I need to mend my ways.

[ClaudeJ1]

4 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

Well, thank you Claude for putting me in the "dime a dozen" category. 

I guess I need to mend my ways.

Nope, you just need to provide more data and show some actual builds instead of just words. This way you would stand out from the other 11.

 

 

[PrestonTom]

30 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Nope, you just need to provide more data and show some actual builds instead of just words. This way you would stand out from the other 11.

 

 

Well, I will certainly give your advice the consideration it deserves.

[ClaudeJ1]

😂😂

On 6/21/2019 at 6:43 PM, PrestonTom said:

Well, I will certainly give your advice the consideration it deserves.

That's the spirit. Good humor. But if I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.

[karlson3]

I've had only 2 hr sleep so mighta botched something - here's power response of a Kappa12C in LS vs K33E and vs a JBL M151 guitar 15.   I'd have to have a single segment expansion to get the directivity

 

Do PWK's bifucated folds tend to be able to go higher for a given bulk horn than single path?

 

[RRR]

On 6/21/2019 at 5:05 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

The simulation was done AFTER I had put K-43's in the LaScala cabinet and heard a "night and day" difference in guitar, sax, female vocals, etc. DETAIL vs. the K-33's that were removed. The 15C goes even further in the micro detail department in that short horn!! (and in my Quarter Pie). It's just a great driver for the money.

 

Detail is exactly the point, the K-33 does lack quite a bit in this department unfortunately.

 

The k-33 may have some advantage below 100 Hz but the short horn design really calls for a subwoofer if you care to hear all the content in the material you are listening to.

 

Its a great driver period, the reasonable price is just a bonus.

 

Be sure to use a 1/4" or so spacer beneath the Eminence driver frame as the cone can hit the motorboard.

[Dave A]

3 hours ago, jason str said:

Be sure to use a 1/4" or so spacer beneath the Eminence driver frame as the cone can hit the motorboard.

Jason are you fabricating the spacer or do you know where to buy one already done? You guys have talked me into trying these 15C's on my current LSI two piece rebuild project. I can sell the old K-43's for more than these will cost if they do all you guys say they will and I have no reason to doubt.

[RRR]

2 hours ago, Dave A said:

Jason are you fabricating the spacer or do you know where to buy one already done? You guys have talked me into trying these 15C's on my current LSI two piece rebuild project. I can sell the old K-43's for more than these will cost if they do all you guys say they will and I have no reason to doubt.

 

Router would be the best method.

 

They do make replacement gasket material to glue on top the old one but use caution installing, double gaskets can be leak prone and be sure its the hard type (normally paper).

[ClaudeJ1]

2 hours ago, Dave A said:

Jason are you fabricating the spacer or do you know where to buy one already done? You guys have talked me into trying these 15C's on my current LSI two piece rebuild project. I can sell the old K-43's for more than these will cost if they do all you guys say they will and I have no reason to doubt.

I'm glad so many of the, so called, "you guys" discovered the same benefits of cost/performance ratio that I did about 6 years ago and posted it somewhere on this board. The cost/performance benefit still holds. The LaScala has poor midrange performance from the short bass horn that it is. Trying to stretch the bass performance with a K33 on those old cabinets is not the best way to use it. Getting more detail in the midrange is a much better compromise, then adding a sube finishes off a great sounding system, trust me.

[Dave A]

3 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I'm glad so many of the, so called, "you guys" discovered the same benefits of cost/performance ratio that I did about 6 years ago and posted it somewhere on this board. The cost/performance benefit still holds. The LaScala has poor midrange performance from the short bass horn that it is. Trying to stretch the bass performance with a K33 on those old cabinets is not the best way to use it. Getting more detail in the midrange is a much better compromise, then adding a sube finishes off a great sounding system, trust me.

Say speaking of "you guys" how come you guys are always trying to spend "our" money eh?🤑

[MookieStl]

26 minutes ago, jason str said:

 

Router would be the best method.

 

They do make replacement gasket material to glue on top the old one but use caution installing, double gaskets can be leak prone and be sure its the hard type (normally paper).

@Dave A I am not convinced the extra spacers are needed. I actually think there may have been an adjustment somewhere along line to make the gasket thicker for rear mounting based on members reporting different observations. When I replaced my K33 with the Kappa 15c (which I really like), I compared the gaskets and found the Kappa to be thicker (it may have been because it had never been mounted and the K33 was 25 years old). Both of these drivers have limited xmax and I doubt there would be any risk of contact. You can zoom in on the image on PE website and get a good view of it. Get a pair in and compare for yourself. If you think you need the gasket, just send me the two radius dimensions and thickness desired and I will send you what you need. (I have a cnc router table). I have made a few of these in the past but for some reason didn't save the cut file.

[RRR]

18 minutes ago, MookieStl said:

@Dave A I am not convinced the extra spacers are needed. I actually think there may have been an adjustment somewhere along line to make the gasket thicker for rear mounting based on members reporting different observations. When I replaced my K33 with the Kappa 15c (which I really like), I compared the gaskets and found the Kappa to be thicker (it may have been because it had never been mounted and the K33 was 25 years old). Both of these drivers have limited xmax and I doubt there would be any risk of contact. You can zoom in on the image on PE website and get a good view of it. Get a pair in and compare for yourself. If you think you need the gasket, just send me the two radius dimensions and thickness desired and I will send you what you need. (I have a cnc router table). I have made a few of these in the past but for some reason didn't save the cut file.

 

Xmax does not mean anything in this regard, Xmech or Xlim is what you should be looking at, that is the limit of one way excursion and my measurement with my set of Eminence Kappa 15 told me it will hit.

 

If you have any doubt contact Eminence.

 

If you could CNC for those interested it would be a big help.

[MookieStl]

Just now, jason str said:

 

Xmax does not mean anything, Xmech or Xlim is what you should be looking at, that is the limit of one way excursion and my measurement with my set of Eminence Kappa 15

told me it will hit.

 

If you have any doubt contact Eminence.

 

If you could CNC for those interested it would be a big help.

I have done so in the past and don't mind doing it. A case of belts and suspenders is how I usually roll. Just didn't look like it is needed and has never been an issue with mine.

Real life experience is what has been promoted in this thread (vs specs) and that is my experience. I called PE several years ago when I bought mine and they did not feel it would make contact. 

[ClaudeJ1]

1 hour ago, Dave A said:

Say speaking of "you guys" how come you guys are always trying to spend "our" money eh?🤑

Because we can!