Which Klipsch to buy?

[rvnye]

I'm new to the forum, and it's great to see such an active forum.  Ever since the mid 70s when I heard my first Klipshorn, I've admired, well, lusted for Klipsch speakers.

 

I have a Woo Audio 300b SET amp with Tonian Labs TLD-1 MK III SE speakers for a 2 channel system.  They're a great speaker, and with the right music and great recordings, they really can make music come alive.  But they sometimes can be a little too revealing, and don't work well with some genres of music (rock or complex loud music).  I'm toying around with living out my teen fantasy and getting some heritage Klipsch speakers.  The reviews of the Heresy IVs sound great and I was going in that direction.  Then I saw some 1+ year old, cherry La Scala IIs for $4,300.  I'd like to get your thoughts on what I should do.

 

My front wall is only 9.5 feet wide, and the speakers could go in the corners.  The room opens up to 12' wide and is 20' deep.  I currently have a Hsu subwoofer, but probably wouldn't have room for it if I got the La Scalas.  Maybe I'd have room for it with the Heresys.  I prefer not to use the sub, and could always repurpose it for the home theater.

 

Questions for you...is that room too small for the La Scalas?  Would I need a subwoofer with the La Scalas?  Do the La Scalas work well against the front wall in the corner, maybe toed in some?  Could I get a similar sound with the Heresy IVs?

 

Which speakers would you recommend??

 

Thanks!  Richard

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[Sancho Panza]

Welcome to the Forums.

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[Peter P.]

I think the LaScala's are physically too large for the short wall. Get the Heresy IV's and it sounds like you may have room for your subwoofer if you crave more bass.

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[rvnye]

@Peter P.   If I can put the La Scalas in the corner, they should take up less room than the Heresys.  The Heresys would need to come out from the front wall probably at least a foot, and brought in from the side walls too I suspect.

 

Another speaker I'm eyeing is the Tekton Perfect Set (or Set 15).  Lots of good choices these days.

[garyrc]

La Scala will be cleaner and have snappy, tight bass, so percussion instruments will sound good.

 

You won't get much response below 60 Hz, but that's a good place to bring in your subwoofer.  Some people don't use a sub with La Scala IIs, but I think you'll want one if you 1) play recordings of organ music, 2) like bass a lot, 3) use the speakers with home theater.

Many people think that La Scala IIs are a bit harsh sounding without a sub, but fine and powerful with one.  Others don't hear a problem without.  YMMV.

[JohnA]

Hmmm.  Not an easy choice, really.  I have H IVs and La Scala Is.  The LS IIs have a very similar driver compliment, but a much more sophisticated crossover network and stiffer bass horn. 

 

The H IVs have a tight sound, well integrated so that I cannot locate any of the drivers.  They go deep enough you don't need a subwoofer if well placed.  They seem a little dark or heavy with mid-bass at first (esp. when compared with the Heresy Is they replaced), but later I realized they reproduce vocals of all types extremely well.  I no longer use my subwoofer with them.   

 

My La Scalas have a light, effortless sound.  Detailed and clear with little hint there is a speaker over there.  Expect to begin identifying different drum head materials.  LS IIs will sound a little more like the H IVs in that overall presentation.  Call them cousins and the new La Scala AL5 a sister. 

 

If you just cannot get subwoofers in the room with La Scalas, get H IVs.  You'll miss the resonance of the notes from low E through A. 

 

 

[wvu80]

I track Heritage prices on my Heritage Prices spreadsheet.  The LS II in Good conditon average $2820.  I don't have that many samples (12 total) since you don't see them on the used market very often.  More on that later.  I see some sold for $3000 and even up to $3500.  Nothing above that.

 

I used to own 1978 LS's with Type AA crossovers.  They have a great articulate sound in the mid range and I did not miss the deep bass, but admittedly I am not a bass head.  I enjoy mostly classical (not the sleepy type) and jazz (with brass).

 

Here is my Heritage Prices spreadsheet.  Feel free to download it, it is a good research tool.

https://1drv.ms/x/s!Ao9ZM0jKLDUYqS_8Qv--83IjaKgw?e=1by62Q

 

I wouldn't worry about the LS II's being too big for your room. 

 

Welcome to the Klipsch forums @rvnye  🤜🤛

 

[Chris A]

17 hours ago, rvnye said:

I have ... Tonian Labs TLD-1 MK III SE speakers for a 2 channel system...But they sometimes can be a little too revealing, and don't work well with some genres of music (rock or complex loud music)...The reviews of the Heresy IVs sound great and I was going in that direction.  Then I saw some 1+ year old, cherry La Scala IIs for $4,300.  I'd like to get your thoughts on what I should do.

 

I believe this is the type of loudspeaker that you're listening to:

 

 

1. Your comment about "too revealing" is an issue here.  Both the Heresy and La Scala loudspeakers will also be very revealing.
    
2. The size of the La Scalas are mitigated by the fact that they really do better in the room corners (with suitable EQ to dial them in and attenuate any response peaks in the midbass--100-200 Hz).  But they are pretty large cubes, and they have to be able to be bought into the room and placed in corners without clutter around them  within 3-4 feet (like any hi-fi loudspeaker).
    
3. Your other comment about "rock or complex loud music" would indicate to me that the La Scalas would be the better choice.  The reason is that they have horizontal polar directivity from 100-700 Hz (i.e., they tend to keep their output off the side walls, but not the floor and ceiling) and very low modulation distortion throughout their audible range, whereas the Heresies do not.  Your current loudspeakers do not have directivity below ~1-2 kHz.  This will be a large discriminator in favor of the La Scalas, i.e., horn-loaded midbass and midrange. 
   
   La Scalas will be able to make rock and loud music sound extremely good, but they do not produce much below 55-65 Hz--depending if you corner load the La Scalas.  This is too high a roll-off frequency for my listening tastes.  It really takes a good horn-loaded subwoofer to blend in and extend their low bass response, and to not obliterate the very clean sound of the La Scala bass bins.  You can sell your direct radiating subwoofer and replace it with a horn-loaded subwoofer, because that direct radiating subwoofer you currently own will never sound as clean as the La Scala bass bins.  With a La Scala/horn-loaded subwoofer setup, you will have something that you can work with for a long time, indeed. 
    
4. I wouldn't be worried with the perceived size of the setup--if you can get everything into the room through the doorways, etc.  They all live next to the walls, not out on the floor of the room away from the walls.  This actually frees up space over what you've got now.
    
5. The long midrange horn in the La Scala relative to the tweeter position is the source of time misalignments due to that physical mismatch of the acoustic centers of the midrange being farther away from the listener. (The same comments apply to the Heresy, too.)  You can time align the tweeter to the midrange horn in the La Scalas and it costs very little time or money.  The solution is to release the tweeter from its position inside the top hat, and bring it out on top of the loudspeaker, but centered at the back of the cabinet to be about where the midrange compression driver is located on the La Scala, and mount on a small baffle on top of the cabinet.  Then you'll have time alignment of the tweeter/midrange.  The La Scala bass bin is almost time aligned with the midrange horn/driver as-is.
   
   You can achieve time alignment also by tri-amping the La Scalas and using digital delay with a good DSP crossover. Then you'll have the best of both worlds: good looks and superior sound quality.  I'd recommend something like a Xilica XP4080 or miniDSP 4x10 HD (lower price point) to do the job, and two other reasonable quality stereo amplifiers.  The two extra stereo amplifiers do not have to be something esoteric like a tube amplifiers.  I've got the DSP settings for tri-amped La Scala II with both DSP crossover types (Xilica and miniDSP) that I can forward.
    
6. There is nothing remarkable about Heresies that I can think of...relative to the La Scalas.  Their only selling point relative to La Scalas is their smaller size and lower price point.  I've never been impressed with the sound of Heresies vs. the sound quality that you can get from La Scalas.  Heresies will probably improve the sound of over your current setup...except perhaps your current ribbon tweeters (which you can also achieve easily with Heresies or La Scalas using AMT-1s and a single DSP crossover).  The Heresies will also have cleaner sound below the crossover frequency of your current loudspeakers--but perhaps not as coherent as what you have now above that frequency. The bass of a Heresy will still sound better than the Fostex drivers crossed to a direct radiating subwoofer, IMHO.

Chris

[rvnye]

WOW, I'm blown away by the helpful responses for forum members!  Thank you for taking the time.

 

@Chris, yes, those are the speakers I'm using.  The speakers are very dynamic and lively, but also very revealing of recordings that aren't the very best quality.  They really shine with string instruments, vocals and drums.  They're a good match with my 300b amp too.  I hadn't thought about the effect the driver position has on timing misalignment.  How does such a misalignment have on the sound of the speaker?  I'm not sure I want to go to the trouble of bi- or tri-amping my speakers.

 

@wvu80, thanks for the info on pricing.  Sounds like there may be some negotiating room in the asking price 😁.

 

Richard

 

 

[Chris A]

5 hours ago, rvnye said:

How does such a misalignment have on the sound of the speaker?  I'm not sure I want to go to the trouble of bi- or tri-amping my speakers.

Note that I gave you a much more complete answer than you'd usually get from an online loudspeaker forum (such as this one).  My response addressed your two choices, and went from the stock configuration of the two models you requested information on (relative to what you've got now), and then extended the discussion to just about everything that I know you could do with those two Klipsch models to improve their sound quality.  That discussion included time alignment of drivers and how you'd likely do it.

 

Does everyone that listens to Heresies or La Scalas hear the time misalignments in the drivers?  Apparently not, since I have never heard of a "kit" from Klipsch or other third party sources to turn them into time aligned loudspeakers using a DSP crossover (although it would be quite easy for Klipsch to offer such a package). 

 

It's usually the marketing folks that get all bent out of shape when you offer product upgrades over what they sell currently: they see those upgrades as threats to their current offerings, as if they should be doing the DSP aligned versions from the start and that would put them at a price margin disadvantage with respect to passive crossover loudspeakers. 

 

Additionally, the era of the DSP controlled home hi-fi loudspeaker is just now coming into vogue: JBL is doing it with their professional  studio monitors, and Klipsch effectively does it with all their professional cinema behind-the-screen models.  diyAudio is now filled with people doing DSP crossover loudspeakers, and a similar number of people that would not accept such a loudspeaker design--using DSP.  So the issue is that there is this divide over the "mossback audiophiles" vs. the "new age home hi-fi enthusiasts" that are trying to got more from their loudspeakers than people expected to get out of them in the past.

 

So to address your question directly...yes, you can hear the difference...but only if someone sets up a La Scala or Heresy with passives and then with DSP crossover and plays them in A-B fashion.  Then you can hear it--most clearly.  What does it sound like? Much more neutral sounding (i.e., no timbre shifts that you get with non-time-aligned crossovers), and with a much larger apparent soundstage vertically and horizontally, with a greater sense of soundstage depth.

 

Most people that have owned the two Klipsch loudspeaker models that you have discussed above for many years probably don't know what they can get out of them using DSP, tri-amping them and dialing them in.  I personally know what you can get out of them using DSP and tri-amping over passive crossovers and monoamping, but I'm not your typical "audiophile".

 

In the case of your Tonian Labs loudspeakers, it's pretty clear that they aren't using a typical crossover filter to add that ribbon tweeter--they are just adding it in parallel to the full-range driver and getting what they're getting (they apparently won't tell you what the crossover frequency is, because there really isn't a defined crossover point, but rather a crossover region where the full-range Fostex driver rolls off on the high end and the ribbon comes in parallel to pick up the load at the highest frequencies.  That isn't a typical crossover filter-driven design.  Tonian apparently won't tell you what they're doing, but a quick pair of measurements using REW with a disconnected and then connect ribbon tweeter will tell you everything that you need to know about their crossover design. 

 

Tonian shouldn't be "tight lipped" about what they're doing.  The net result of that approach is that there are no phase shifts associated with adding the tweeter, and they probably don't want to admit that's what they're doing.  I understand what that does and how that can improve the sound of the resulting full-range driver + ribbon tweeter.  The phase flattening effect is subconsciously very audible, but difficult for the casual listener to put a finger on just exactly how it sounds different.  The same thing is used in at least one series of loudspeakers made by Danley Sound Labs, called the "Synergy series", i.e., their multiple entry horn (MEH) designs.  I've heard the difference, and its easy to do using DSP crossovers.  But it's a ***** to try to do it using passive crossovers (like Danley has).  I would not try to use passives like Danley does it,  The cost and complexity of their Synergy passive crossovers is a bit startling, such as the crossover for the SH-50, below:

 

 

Chris

[baron167]

@ChrisA wow I'm inspired, thanks. Have you done this with Klipschorns?



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[Chris A]

Yes, recently--about 3 months ago. I own Khorn clones (Shinalls) that I tri-amped and dialed in using a Yamaha SP2060 DSP crossover.

 

Chris

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[rvnye]

Chris, when you introduced the idea to me to tri-amp the La Scalas using a DSP I have to admit, I dismissed the idea as being too techie for me.  There's something to be said about simple systems.  Introducing more electronics in the signal path wasn't the way I was thinking.  But I gave it another thought, and it might be a good way to take this hobby.  On the surface, it sounds like a good idea.  I went to Xilica website to do a little research.  If I took this approach, I'd need to change a few things.  First, the Woo Audio WA-5 doesn't have a line out.  I think they can add one if I sent mine back in.  Next, I don't have a Windows laptop to run the Xilica software.  Next, I'd need to get 2 more amps and cables, and think about power management.  This would have to be something I'd grow into.

 

A couple questions for you...If I were to bi-amp instead of tri-amp, would I power one of the crossovers, and one of the drivers?  Like power the subwoofer with a separate amp, and power the mid/high crossover with a 2nd amp?  If you tri-amp, there is no need for the crossover, right?  Also, what amps would you recommend for the low, middle & high?  SET amp for each?  SS amp for the lows?

 

You have me thinking now, and it could get expensive.

 

Richard

[baron167]

Yes, recently--about 3 months ago. I own Khorn clones (Shinalls) that I tri-amped and dialed in using a Yamaha SP2060 DSP crossover.
 
Chris

I'm thinking I remember you posting about it awhile back. Have you kept the configuration? How happy are you with it?Thank you


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[wvu80]

1 hour ago, Randyh said:

19 hours ago, wvu80 said:

 

Dave ---what are those speakers on top of you ------CF 3

 

The L/R are CF-4s with dual 12" woofers. 

 

The center is a DIY from DIYSoundgroup.com called the Cheap Thrill, part of a pair.  It has a characteristic sound close to the CF-4's but this one is more accurate out of the box, so to speak.

 

It is the same footprint as the CF-4 and I believe the enclosure is 4.0 cuft.  It uses a 12" SEOS waveguild with a Denovo DNA-360 compression driver.  The woofer is a 15" Celestion closeout model originally made for a bass guitar, so pro audio.  It has an unbelievable mid-range sound, very accurate.  I had to build the box but the parts were $112 for the pair, plus $100 for a pair of woofers.  I am thinking it was about $250 for the pair.

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