La Scala Woes

[pioneerhip]

It sounds like you are experiencing exactly what I was fighting with my La Scalas. I started with the AL-3 and purchased the a/4500 . I am not a fan of the A/4500. I can't decide if it was the crossover point or the clarity caps or where the problem was in mine. I have a friend that has the ALK universal. His La Scalas are much smoother and they also give the option to adjust mids and highs with a jumper. Very convenient! I also used dynamat on all of the horns. I eventually sold mine as they weren't a great fit in my room, and purchased Cornscalas. With all of that said, talk with Dean and see what he suggests for crossovers. He built the crossovers for the Cornscalas and they won out over the crites and ALK steep slopes. I might still have my La Scalas if I had talked to Dean first. Attached are the Deang crossovers. Good luck on the journey!

[OO1]

23 hours ago, sootshe said:

 Apart from the "headache" mid horn. 

 

yeah , definitely not an Elliptrac 400

[jimjimbo]

16 hours ago, Desert Noises said:

I am leaning toward dropping the mids by 3dB.

yes

[Curious_George]

2 hours ago, pioneerhip said:

I have a friend that has the ALK universal. His La Scalas are much smoother and they also give the option to adjust mids and highs with a jumper. 

 

The ALK Universal will make a LaScala smoother, but the K401 has to go. That is the biggest issue regarding the midrange performance. 

[OO1]

2 hours ago, Desert Noises said:

Interesting point. I think I'm going to try that 12dB roll off mod for the woofers. I know my Cornwalls (B2 crossover) and Heresys (E2 crossover) both have capacitors across their woofers. Possibly for the same purpose? Easy enough and reversible if needed. I'm also going to temporarily clamp some blocks to the sides of the bass bins to add support as a test to see if there's any resonances of the bass horn that are contributing to the sounds I'm hearing.

these speakers aren't for you  -but the Cornscala is

 

search out for a used pair of LS II and call it a day --selling price is between 4500$ and 5k$ -  this may sound like a simple answer , but the LS II is an amazing speaker -

[geoff.]

I would like to know what filters Klipsch uses on the new models to make them nice again.

[billybob]

Dropping the mids by 3 db sounds the simpler way.

[jimjimbo]

19 hours ago, Desert Noises said:

I have a 1988 pair of La Scalas with two problems I'm trying to solve:boxy/stuffy bass and harsh midrange. Here's how they are configured:

 

Type A/4500 crossovers from Crites

CT120 Tweeters from Crites

Stock K-401 mid horn with the A-55-G drivers

Stock K-33-E woofers (also tried the Eminence Kappa 15C)

Room size is 16'x20' with high vaulted ceiling, floor carpeted, with La Scalas in corners along the 16' wall, toed in approx 20 deg.

SVS SB2000 sub crossed at 80 Hz near the right speaker

Amplification is from a fully restored/recapped Pioneer SX-1250

DAC for digital music is a Schiit Modi Uber

Turntable is Kenwood KD-750 with Audio-Technica VM540ML cartridge

 

My woes with the La Scalas are as follows: 1) The upper bass sounds boxy, nasal-y and stuffy. 2) The midrange at higher volume (~90 dB) is just plain harsh and unpleasant. I reduce the 100 Hz tone control a bit and that alleviates the boxy/stuffiness to a degree. Meanwhile, I connect my home-built Cornwalls (Clonewalls) with B2 crossovers, K-55 mid, K-77 tweet, and Kappa 15C, and they sound amazing with no fatigue, even at higher volumes. Plus I get bass! Classical music commands a lifelike presence. I used to love the La Scalas before my recently built Cornwalls. Now that I can compare between the two, I vastly prefer the sound of the Cornwall. Am I missing something, or has anyone else had the same experience? I've been considering dropping the mid down 3 dB and changing the capacitor to 6.8 uF. Is there anything else I can try short of doing anything drastic like cutting wood?

 

 

Sent you a PM.  

[captainbeefheart]

4 hours ago, pioneerhip said:

It sounds like you are experiencing exactly what I was fighting with my La Scalas. I started with the AL-3 and purchased the a/4500 . I am not a fan of the A/4500. I can't decide if it was the crossover point or the clarity caps or where the problem was in mine. I have a friend that has the ALK universal. His La Scalas are much smoother and they also give the option to adjust mids and highs with a jumper. Very convenient! I also used dynamat on all of the horns. I eventually sold mine as they weren't a great fit in my room, and purchased Cornscalas. With all of that said, talk with Dean and see what he suggests for crossovers. He built the crossovers for the Cornscalas and they won out over the crites and ALK steep slopes. I might still have my La Scalas if I had talked to Dean first. Attached are the Deang crossovers. Good luck on the journey!

 

The added 500uH air core inductor in series with the mid horn driver Deang used on the A/4500 is most certainly the reason why you like his network over the previous versions that didn't have it. You could have just added it to the first a/4500 in your LaScalas and like you said you most likely would still have them today. It seems universal that the added inductor improves the A/4500 mid horn sound.

 

Who knows, maybe the extra 200nF of capacitance in the tweeter filter is audible also.

[captainbeefheart]

Might be a little off topic but I am curious about something.

 

Has anyone tried using two low ESR dry type polymer electrolytics for crossovers? Mainly for the 13uF capacitor, you can place two 22uF back to back giving you a 11uF bipolar capacitor and then place a high quality 2.2uF film capacitor in parallel. This gives us the value of 13uF and still maintains low ESR. Price is less than $10 total for the 3 capacitors.

 

Here is a datasheet for the type of capacitor I am talking about; https://content.kemet.com/datasheets/KEM_A4072_A759.pdf

 

Since it is a dry type electrolytic they won't dry out over time

[Dave A]

2 hours ago, geoff. said:

I would like to know what filters Klipsch uses on the new models to make them nice again.

1" thick side wall filters mostly. They did go to these for a reason. But I understand doing the practical thing last when all those lovely electronic goodies are calling. I have been guilty of the same thing as recently as this week with drivers that did not work out.

[pioneerhip]

23 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

The added 500uH air core inductor in series with the mid horn driver Deang used on the A/4500 is most certainly the reason why you like his network over the previous versions that didn't have it. You could have just added it to the first a/4500 in your LaScalas and like you said you most likely would still have them today. It seems universal that the added inductor improves the A/4500 mid horn sound.

 

Who knows, maybe the extra 200nF of capacitance in the tweeter filter is audible also.

Dean didn't add anything to my A/4500 crossovers. He built new crossovers for my Cornscalas based on the drivers being used. On my A/4500 crossovers I did swap some caps out and it made a difference but nothing like replacing the entire network.  

[captainbeefheart]

7 minutes ago, pioneerhip said:

Dean didn't add anything to my A/4500 crossovers. He built new crossovers for my Cornscalas based on the drivers being used. On my A/4500 crossovers I did swap some caps out and it made a difference but nothing like replacing the entire network.

 

Your original A/4500 crossovers do not have the 500uH inductors in the mid horn filter network which you have in the crossovers Deang made for you, so yes he did add a non-original component to the network so it is now a modified, non-original network. Get it? He didn't build you the exact same network, it is different because of the added inductor. Comparing apples to oranges since the actual circuit is different.

[captainbeefheart]

18 minutes ago, pioneerhip said:

Dean didn't add anything to my A/4500 crossovers. He built new crossovers for my Cornscalas based on the drivers being used. On my A/4500 crossovers I did swap some caps out and it made a difference but nothing like replacing the entire network.  

 

He actually added two inductors that were not originally in the A/4500 network, the 500uH in the mid-horn network and the 245uH inductor in the tweeter network.

 

So comparing apples to oranges like I said since the built Deang network is completely different vs the original A/4500 network. Look at your board, the original  A/4500 only has one inductor for the woofer and the autoformer for the mid-horn, your networks have 3 inductors and the autoformer.

[pioneerhip]

7 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

Your original A/4500 crossovers do not have the 500uH inductors in the mid horn filter network which you have in the crossovers Deang made for you, so yes he did add a non-original component to the network so it is now a modified, non-original network. Get it? He didn't build you the exact same network, it is different because of the added inductor. Comparing apples to oranges since the actual circuit is different.

I think you are missing it. He didn't modify the A/4500 networks I had. He didn't build his version of the A/4500. 

He built new networks from the ground up. Changed the crossover points, different inductors etc. . Get it? Stop being so arrogant. There isn't a need for it. 

We are talking crossovers so unless you are saying it isn't apple to apples because the values used and the schematic isn't the same then you are correct not apples to apples.

 

However we are talking crossovers here so it's the same ballpark. 

[captainbeefheart]

18 minutes ago, pioneerhip said:

I think you are missing it. He didn't modify the A/4500 networks I had.

 

I am not missing anything, I said several times he built you different networks, that was my point.

 

19 minutes ago, pioneerhip said:

We are talking crossovers so unless you are saying it isn't apple to apples because the values used and the schematic isn't the same then you are correct not apples to apples.

 

Yes, that is all I am saying.  Your original post made a statement that I will quote:

6 hours ago, pioneerhip said:

I can't decide if it was the crossover point or the clarity caps or where the problem was in mine.

 

I was merely pointing out that it was the added inductors to the new networks, mainly the 500uH in the horn section that probably accounted for why you liked the new networks you had built.

 

24 minutes ago, pioneerhip said:

Stop being so arrogant. There isn't a need for it. 

 

 

I am sorry if you took my comments as me being "arrogant", that was not my intention. My only intention was to point out that many people agree the added 500uH inductor to the horn section is an improvement with the A/4500 network. And, if you had your old networks you most likely would have liked them better if you added this inductor.

[Curious_George]

1 hour ago, captainbeefheart said:

Might be a little off topic but I am curious about something.

 

Has anyone tried using two low ESR dry type polymer electrolytics for crossovers? Mainly for the 13uF capacitor, you can place two 22uF back to back giving you a 11uF bipolar capacitor and then place a high quality 2.2uF film capacitor in parallel. This gives us the value of 13uF and still maintains low ESR. Price is less than $10 total for the 3 capacitors.

 

Here is a datasheet for the type of capacitor I am talking about; https://content.kemet.com/datasheets/KEM_A4072_A759.pdf

 

Since it is a dry type electrolytic they won't dry out over time

So this would be kindred to a tantalum? I'd try them and see how they worked.

 

As an experiment awhile back, I used tantalums where high value electrolytics (polarized) were used for signal coupling and they work great. There is not much chance of over or reverse voltage in the coupling circuit, so I surmised they would have a long life and never dry out. 

 

I know tantalums are not usually used for signal coupling, but it is/was an experiment and so far so good. 

[Curious_George]

37 minutes ago, pioneerhip said:

Stop being so arrogant.

 

Beefy... you are so alpha.

[captainbeefheart]

1 hour ago, Curious_George said:

So this would be kindred to a tantalum? I'd try them and see how they worked.

 

As an experiment awhile back, I used tantalums where high value electrolytics (polarized) were used for signal coupling and they work great. There is not much chance of over or reverse voltage in the coupling circuit, so I surmised they would have a long life and never dry out. 

 

I know tantalums are not usually used for signal coupling, but it is/was an experiment and so far so good. 

 

Yes similar to tantalum but the aluminum polymer types have lower ESR especially at frequency extremes low/high. Compared to regular aluminum electrolytics tantalum are more reliable, have better dissipation factor, and basically they are more stable and operate better over larger frequency  and temperature range.  Problem is they are more expensive so for power supplies we mainly stick to aluminum electrolytics, besides a little ESR in a power supply decouple cap is mostly beneficial to dampen LC resonance.

[Deang]

11 hours ago, captainbeefheart said:

Your original A/4500 crossovers do not have the 500uH inductors in the mid horn filter network.

 

Sure they do.