Bubo Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Quote je ne sais quoi noun zhə-nə-ˌsā-ˈkwä : something (such as an appealing quality) that cannot be adequately described or expressed a young actress who has a certain je ne sais quoi Example Sentences Although the sculpture had flaws, it also had a certain je ne sais quoi that made it very appealing. Have DACs hit the point where any competent design is pretty good given that we are on the 4th or 5th gen of DAC chip sets ? The "best sounding DAC" may be only $100 today. Can anyone who has been comparison shopping lately tell the difference ? It pains me to say it, but the SONY $35 DVD player I purchased a few years ago sounds pretty good powering my excellent quality Yamaha MX 600 amp and matching pre amp running through the same vintage Yamaha EQ with the nice florescent bouncing bars and good SN numbers. My comment to myself was and is "SONY does it again". I'm guessing that the SONY has a $5 Delta Sigma (guess) mass produced chip set. Does TI make these these? A few years ago, on the Headfi Boards, a group did a DAC bake-off Maybe 2 generations ago and found that any $500 DAC sounded pretty good, $250 if it was an EMO (Emotiva). They couldn't discern any noticeable difference. These might be today's $100 DACs with most of the cost in the housing and power supply, not to mention the cardboard box which may cost more than the DAC chip set. Engineering usually makes some improvements, and hundreds of little fixes with each generation. The mass production chip sets usually move in once the kinks are worked out; and, the custom ASICs fade away with the next set of designs. The DAC guys in Boulder Colorado use FPGA for their DAC processors so they can modify and change the software on the fly with their next set of little fixes and improvements. Might be a little faster processing than the chip sets, how fast is fast enough. Likewise, each amp represents a series of design choices and trade offs. Science, engineering, physics and art aka audio equipment. Sounds good on paper is different than sounds good. Years ago, I read a Motorcycle Bake Off article on the Superbikes All current (at the time) road-racing bike riders There were all of the technical metrics criteria; acceleration, braking, max speed, quarter mile, turns etc etc etc Japanese bikes took the top 6 or 7 slots. Ducati (F1 ? ) took I recall #7 slot. All riders were asked if they could take one bike home for free, which one would they choose ? Every rider chose the Ducati, because it was a better bike from the users point of view. The 1,2,3 finishes at many races bore this out. At 160 mph in a turn, you are betting your life on the bike in every turn. Last fall, I took a friend shopping for a pistol, his first He had a finite budget. The country store salesman in his late 20s was unusually knowledgeable. There was also the more seasoned and knowledgeable 50 something country guy. My friend and I had settled on a name brand 2nd tier import in the $500 range. I asked the 20 something salesman which one "he would bet his life on", he put the import back in the case and pulled out a slightly less expensive US made model, "this one" Any version of the Heresy, is another example of this phenomenon they sound good compared to anything for home use volumes. Every time I turn on my 1s, I remark to myself they sound great ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 I answered your question in the other thread, but I will cut and paste here. The differences between some is subtle, others not so subtle at all. I guess it depends on how resolving your system is and how particular you are with getting that last percentage of performance. You might put two dacs in your line stage and switch back and forth over and over and only hear a slight difference. But when you sit down for longer term relaxed listening sessions, the real story unfolds. That was the long answer, the short one is "it depends". If 100.00 DAC gets you to musical bliss, consider yourself lucky and go buy a few 200.00 bottles of bourbon. That's my highly scientific advice. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeloManiac Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 4 hours ago, Bubo said: Have DACs hit the point where any competent design is pretty good given that we are on the 4th or 5th gen of DAC chip sets ? The "best sounding DAC" may be only $100 today. Can anyone who has been comparison shopping lately tell the difference ? It pains me to say it, but the SONY $35 DVD player I purchased a few years ago sounds pretty good powering my excellent quality Yamaha MX 600 amp and matching pre amp running through the same vintage Yamaha EQ with the nice florescent bouncing bars and good SN numbers. My comment to myself was and is "SONY does it again". I'm guessing that the SONY has a $5 Delta Sigma (guess) mass produced chip set. Does TI make these these? A few years ago, on the Headfi Boards, a group did a DAC bake-off Maybe 2 generations ago and found that any $500 DAC sounded pretty good, $250 if it was an EMO (Emotiva). They couldn't discern any noticeable difference. These might be today's $100 DACs with most of the cost in the housing and power supply, not to mention the cardboard box which may cost more than the DAC chip set. Engineering usually makes some improvements, and hundreds of little fixes with each generation. The mass production chip sets usually move in once the kinks are worked out; and, the custom ASICs fade away with the next set of designs. The DAC guys in Boulder Colorado use FPGA for their DAC processors so they can modify and change the software on the fly with their next set of little fixes and improvements. Might be a little faster processing than the chip sets, how fast is fast enough. Likewise, each amp represents a series of design choices and trade offs. Science, engineering, physics and art aka audio equipment. Sounds good on paper is different than sounds good. Years ago, I read a Motorcycle Bake Off article on the Superbikes All current (at the time) road-racing bike riders There were all of the technical metrics criteria; acceleration, braking, max speed, quarter mile, turns etc etc etc Japanese bikes took the top 6 or 7 slots. Ducati (F1 ? ) took I recall #7 slot. All riders were asked if they could take one bike home for free, which one would they choose ? Every rider chose the Ducati, because it was a better bike from the users point of view. The 1,2,3 finishes at many races bore this out. At 160 mph in a turn, you are betting your life on the bike in every turn. Last fall, I took a friend shopping for a pistol, his first He had a finite budget. The country store salesman in his late 20s was unusually knowledgeable. There was also the more seasoned and knowledgeable 50 something country guy. My friend and I had settled on a name brand 2nd tier import in the $500 range. I asked the 20 something salesman which one "he would bet his life on", he put the import back in the case and pulled out a slightly less expensive US made model, "this one" Any version of the Heresy, is another example of this phenomenon they sound good compared to anything for home use volumes. Every time I turn on my 1s, I remark to myself they sound great ! Another analogy would be digital camera sensors. Over the years, they have improved a lot, especially in low light conditions with high iso values. Most brands, like Canon, Nikon, Fujifilm and Panasonic have great cameras in their line-up that cost about the same. But then again, each brand has some (older) cameras that produce pictures with a je ne sais quoi to them that makes the camera irreplaceable. The Fuji X-Pro MK I is one example, the Panasonic Lumix LX3 is another. If you own one of these, you'd better never part with them or you'll regret it for the rest of your life! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Much like the internal DAC and build quality in the Pioneer Elite PD93 CD player(s) I have. Pop the bonnet on these twenty + year old pieces and you’d spend $10-15k to duplicate(hopefully) the build quality today. That’s why I own two - just in case — 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said: I answered your question in the other thread, but I will cut and paste here. The differences between some is subtle, others not so subtle at all. I guess it depends on how resolving your system is and how particular you are with getting that last percentage of performance. You might put two dacs in your line stage and switch back and forth over and over and only hear a slight difference. But when you sit down for longer term relaxed listening sessions, the real story unfolds. That was the long answer, the short one is "it depends". If 100.00 DAC gets you to musical bliss, consider yourself lucky and go buy a few 200.00 bottles of bourbon. That's my highly scientific advice. I think that's well said, but I also think (and not speaking for him) that Bubo may want to know what the majority thinks...maybe not. I always have the what if, then I ask the question. It always comes down to personal preference. That being said, I am pretty happy with my Schiit Modi and Raspberry PI DAC+ when playing back from ROON to both my Marantz SR5015 and AV7704. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 I have a Denon DCD 1400 CD player that I bought new in 1989. I always figured that I would use the digital out but keep it because it is built like a tank and I have had it so long. I did some research on it and in some forums they were saying how good it was. I put it in my system and yes, this 34 year old CD player sounds quite good with its internal DACs. Never did any comparisons. I also recently had to repair a preamp and swapped in a Benchmark DAC PRE for a short time in an office system. It caught my attention that it sounded good, but again, no critical listening. Maybe just different, I don't know. I any event, these are both older and sound very good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeloManiac Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, tigerwoodKhorns said: I have a Denon DCD 1400 CD player that I bought new in 1989. That's pretty amazing. Most cheap 'modern' cd players fail after a couple of years of use because there are one or two sh*tty components in it with built-in obsoleteness to make sure we keep spending our hard earned money. (and they glue it together so the faulty component can't be replaced...) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeloManiac Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Most expensive DACs come with licences for the more expensive, exotic formats, could that be it? And lots of inputs, outputs, special power sources (batteries! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, MeloManiac said: That's pretty amazing. Most cheap 'modern' cd players fail after a couple of years of use because there are one or two sh*tty components in it with built-in obsoleteness to make sure we keep spending our hard earned money. (and they glue it together so the faulty component can't be replaced...) Sounds about right. I think I paid $400 or $500 in 1989 for the player. Had to save up to get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeloManiac Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 8 minutes ago, tigerwoodKhorns said: Sounds about right. I think I paid $400 or $500 in 1989 for the player. Had to save up to get it. I used to have a Yamaha CD player around that time. I had it for a long time until it failed to recognize CDs and kept spinning. Not built like a tank, though. I took it to the dumpster. Which I now regret. Probably a lighter version of their CDX2000 model https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/contents/audio_visual/hifi_components/hifi-history/cd-player/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Just now, MeloManiac said: I used to have a Yamaha CD player around that time. I had it for a long time until it failed to recognize CDs and kept spinning. Not built like a tank, though. I took it to the dumpster. Which I now regret. Probably just needed a laser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted March 24, 2023 Author Share Posted March 24, 2023 9 hours ago, The Dude said: I think that's well said, but I also think (and not speaking for him) that Bubo may want to know what the majority thinks...maybe not. I always have the what if, then I ask the question. It always comes down to personal preference. That being said, I am pretty happy with my Schiit Modi and Raspberry PI DAC+ when playing back from ROON to both my Marantz SR5015 and AV7704. I'm wondering aloud, is any new competent DAC pretty good ? The EMO headphone DACs I just purchased for me and my daughter, sound really good at $80 ea. 3 filters are available to address various DAC nasties, the default that EMO liked sounded good to me after I switched between the 3. The chip set is at least 2-3 gens newer than my EMO XDA DAC, which sounds pretty good and is also a digital pre amp with lots of inputs. I was hoping that someone had done a recent bake off and had some impressions to share. EMO manual has a nice explanation, also the chip set has some other nice features covered in the manual. They enabled all 3 supported filters, the Frank Sinatra "Have it your way" Also a nice tutorial on digital audio, worth the 5 minutes to read the manual Your Big Ego offers a choice of three different digital interpolation filters, each of which sounds subtly different. The Symmetrical filter (F1) is a classical design which combines equal amounts of pre-ringing and post-ringing. This is the filter most commonly used by other DACs. The Asymmetrical Low filter (F2) has virtually no pre-ringing, but several cycles of post-ringing. Many listeners find this combination to sound more natural, while still preserving the liveliness of your music. The Asymmetrical High filter (F3) has virtually no pre-ringing, and very little post-ringing. Listeners tend to describe this filter as sounding very mellow, but possibly more flat sounding than F2 with some program material. About Pre-Ringing and Post-Ringing Theoretical Symmetrical Filter Asymmetrical Low Filter Asymmetrical High Filter In order to facilitate converting digital audio into analog as accurately as possible, the Big Ego uses what’s known as an oversampling filter or interpolation filter. While this filter causes no audible alteration of steady state signals, when a transient signal like a drum beat is converted, a tiny bit of ringing is added to the signal. While this ringing is not audible as a separate sound, its presence can subtly alter the sound character of the output. The first picture on the left shows what a theoretically perfect output of a certain pulse would look like. The remaining three pictures show graphically what that same pulse will look like after passing through each of the three filter options on the Big Ego. Tests have shown that ringing after the main signal is less audible than ringing before it, and many people perceive the Asymmetrical filter choices as sounding better, but it’s really a matter of personal preference. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2572/6926/files/BigEgo_manual_07.pdf?5495441154491181254 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 14 hours ago, Bubo said: I'm wondering aloud, is any new competent DAC pretty good ? The EMO headphone DACs I just purchased for me and my daughter, sound really good at $80 ea. 3 filters are available to address various DAC nasties, the default that EMO liked sounded good to me after I switched between the 3. The chip set is at least 2-3 gens newer than my EMO XDA DAC, which sounds pretty good and is also a digital pre amp with lots of inputs. I was hoping that someone had done a recent bake off and had some impressions to share. EMO manual has a nice explanation, also the chip set has some other nice features covered in the manual. They enabled all 3 supported filters, the Frank Sinatra "Have it your way" Also a nice tutorial on digital audio, worth the 5 minutes to read the manual Your Big Ego offers a choice of three different digital interpolation filters, each of which sounds subtly different. The Symmetrical filter (F1) is a classical design which combines equal amounts of pre-ringing and post-ringing. This is the filter most commonly used by other DACs. The Asymmetrical Low filter (F2) has virtually no pre-ringing, but several cycles of post-ringing. Many listeners find this combination to sound more natural, while still preserving the liveliness of your music. The Asymmetrical High filter (F3) has virtually no pre-ringing, and very little post-ringing. Listeners tend to describe this filter as sounding very mellow, but possibly more flat sounding than F2 with some program material. About Pre-Ringing and Post-Ringing Theoretical Symmetrical Filter Asymmetrical Low Filter Asymmetrical High Filter In order to facilitate converting digital audio into analog as accurately as possible, the Big Ego uses what’s known as an oversampling filter or interpolation filter. While this filter causes no audible alteration of steady state signals, when a transient signal like a drum beat is converted, a tiny bit of ringing is added to the signal. While this ringing is not audible as a separate sound, its presence can subtly alter the sound character of the output. The first picture on the left shows what a theoretically perfect output of a certain pulse would look like. The remaining three pictures show graphically what that same pulse will look like after passing through each of the three filter options on the Big Ego. Tests have shown that ringing after the main signal is less audible than ringing before it, and many people perceive the Asymmetrical filter choices as sounding better, but it’s really a matter of personal preference. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2572/6926/files/BigEgo_manual_07.pdf?5495441154491181254 This is interesting. Do people like vinyl perhaps because the mass of the needle reverberates a bit? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeloManiac Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 16 hours ago, Bubo said: I'm wondering aloud, is any new competent DAC pretty good ? The EMO headphone DACs I just purchased for me and my daughter, sound really good at $80 ea. 3 filters are available to address various DAC nasties, the default that EMO liked sounded good to me after I switched between the 3. The chip set is at least 2-3 gens newer than my EMO XDA DAC, which sounds pretty good and is also a digital pre amp with lots of inputs. I was hoping that someone had done a recent bake off and had some impressions to share. EMO manual has a nice explanation, also the chip set has some other nice features covered in the manual. They enabled all 3 supported filters, the Frank Sinatra "Have it your way" Also a nice tutorial on digital audio, worth the 5 minutes to read the manual Your Big Ego offers a choice of three different digital interpolation filters, each of which sounds subtly different. The Symmetrical filter (F1) is a classical design which combines equal amounts of pre-ringing and post-ringing. This is the filter most commonly used by other DACs. The Asymmetrical Low filter (F2) has virtually no pre-ringing, but several cycles of post-ringing. Many listeners find this combination to sound more natural, while still preserving the liveliness of your music. The Asymmetrical High filter (F3) has virtually no pre-ringing, and very little post-ringing. Listeners tend to describe this filter as sounding very mellow, but possibly more flat sounding than F2 with some program material. About Pre-Ringing and Post-Ringing Theoretical Symmetrical Filter Asymmetrical Low Filter Asymmetrical High Filter In order to facilitate converting digital audio into analog as accurately as possible, the Big Ego uses what’s known as an oversampling filter or interpolation filter. While this filter causes no audible alteration of steady state signals, when a transient signal like a drum beat is converted, a tiny bit of ringing is added to the signal. While this ringing is not audible as a separate sound, its presence can subtly alter the sound character of the output. The first picture on the left shows what a theoretically perfect output of a certain pulse would look like. The remaining three pictures show graphically what that same pulse will look like after passing through each of the three filter options on the Big Ego. Tests have shown that ringing after the main signal is less audible than ringing before it, and many people perceive the Asymmetrical filter choices as sounding better, but it’s really a matter of personal preference. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2572/6926/files/BigEgo_manual_07.pdf?5495441154491181254 This to me sounds more like a copy writer trying to invent some new audiophile marketing babble... The secret sauce (snake oil?) seems to be 'ringing'... Add some expensive words to the mix and they can sell their DAC for tenfold the price of a budget DAC... The only thing I hear ringing here is the cash register! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketFoot Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 I'm confused by the whole DAC thing...do I need a DAC? I like to stream from the internet to my vintage stereo and I use an iPad Pro or an Alexa Echo Dot device. Ethier one seems to do a really good job and I suppose they are in theory the same as having a DAC but would a $179 DAC be better? What about a $1000 DAC? I'm a little foggy on why I might "need" a DAC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeloManiac Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 16 hours ago, Bubo said: I'm wondering aloud, is any new competent DAC pretty good ? The EMO headphone DACs I just purchased for me and my daughter, sound really good at $80 ea. 3 filters are available to address various DAC nasties, the default that EMO liked sounded good to me after I switched between the 3. The chip set is at least 2-3 gens newer than my EMO XDA DAC, which sounds pretty good and is also a digital pre amp with lots of inputs. I was hoping that someone had done a recent bake off and had some impressions to share. EMO manual has a nice explanation, also the chip set has some other nice features covered in the manual. They enabled all 3 supported filters, the Frank Sinatra "Have it your way" Also a nice tutorial on digital audio, worth the 5 minutes to read the manual Your Big Ego offers a choice of three different digital interpolation filters, each of which sounds subtly different. The Symmetrical filter (F1) is a classical design which combines equal amounts of pre-ringing and post-ringing. This is the filter most commonly used by other DACs. The Asymmetrical Low filter (F2) has virtually no pre-ringing, but several cycles of post-ringing. Many listeners find this combination to sound more natural, while still preserving the liveliness of your music. The Asymmetrical High filter (F3) has virtually no pre-ringing, and very little post-ringing. Listeners tend to describe this filter as sounding very mellow, but possibly more flat sounding than F2 with some program material. About Pre-Ringing and Post-Ringing Theoretical Symmetrical Filter Asymmetrical Low Filter Asymmetrical High Filter In order to facilitate converting digital audio into analog as accurately as possible, the Big Ego uses what’s known as an oversampling filter or interpolation filter. While this filter causes no audible alteration of steady state signals, when a transient signal like a drum beat is converted, a tiny bit of ringing is added to the signal. While this ringing is not audible as a separate sound, its presence can subtly alter the sound character of the output. The first picture on the left shows what a theoretically perfect output of a certain pulse would look like. The remaining three pictures show graphically what that same pulse will look like after passing through each of the three filter options on the Big Ego. Tests have shown that ringing after the main signal is less audible than ringing before it, and many people perceive the Asymmetrical filter choices as sounding better, but it’s really a matter of personal preference. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2572/6926/files/BigEgo_manual_07.pdf?5495441154491181254 What program do you use to playback your hi-rez audio files? When I did some research last year, I learned that the good ones don't come free of charge, and that the OS of your Windows or Apple laptop very often will limit the output quality. To me, it's all too foggy and I prefer straight forward vinyl record playback! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted March 24, 2023 Author Share Posted March 24, 2023 On 3/24/2023 at 11:54 AM, KT88 said: This is interesting. Do people like vinyl perhaps because the mass of the needle reverberates a bit? No quantization error No decoding deformations or other nasties No 20khz low pass filter No loudness wars Mastering Engineer is generally prouder of their vinyl work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted March 24, 2023 Author Share Posted March 24, 2023 2 hours ago, MeloManiac said: This to me sounds more like a copy writer trying to invent some new audiophile marketing babble... The secret sauce (snake oil?) seems to be 'ringing'... Add some expensive words to the mix and they can sell their DAC for tenfold the price of a budget DAC... The only thing I hear ringing here is the cash register! At $80, not sure how many would say Emo is expensive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted March 24, 2023 Author Share Posted March 24, 2023 2 hours ago, MeloManiac said: What program do you use to playback your hi-rez audio files? When I did some research last year, I learned that the good ones don't come free of charge, and that the OS of your Windows or Apple laptop very often will limit the output quality. To me, it's all too foggy and I prefer straight forward vinyl record playback! I don't believe the data bus speed is the limiting factor in sound Most likely the on board sound card or budget chip set. Like video, a good quality sound card gets you more speed, memory and processing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Khorns Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 18 hours ago, Bubo said: I'm wondering aloud, is any new competent DAC pretty good ? The EMO headphone DACs I just purchased for me and my daughter, sound really good at $80 ea. 3 filters are available to address various DAC nasties, the default that EMO liked sounded good to me after I switched between the 3. The chip set is at least 2-3 gens newer than my EMO XDA DAC, which sounds pretty good and is also a digital pre amp with lots of inputs. I was hoping that someone had done a recent bake off and had some impressions to share. EMO manual has a nice explanation, also the chip set has some other nice features covered in the manual. They enabled all 3 supported filters, the Frank Sinatra "Have it your way" Also a nice tutorial on digital audio, worth the 5 minutes to read the manual Your Big Ego offers a choice of three different digital interpolation filters, each of which sounds subtly different. The Symmetrical filter (F1) is a classical design which combines equal amounts of pre-ringing and post-ringing. This is the filter most commonly used by other DACs. The Asymmetrical Low filter (F2) has virtually no pre-ringing, but several cycles of post-ringing. Many listeners find this combination to sound more natural, while still preserving the liveliness of your music. The Asymmetrical High filter (F3) has virtually no pre-ringing, and very little post-ringing. Listeners tend to describe this filter as sounding very mellow, but possibly more flat sounding than F2 with some program material. About Pre-Ringing and Post-Ringing Theoretical Symmetrical Filter Asymmetrical Low Filter Asymmetrical High Filter In order to facilitate converting digital audio into analog as accurately as possible, the Big Ego uses what’s known as an oversampling filter or interpolation filter. While this filter causes no audible alteration of steady state signals, when a transient signal like a drum beat is converted, a tiny bit of ringing is added to the signal. While this ringing is not audible as a separate sound, its presence can subtly alter the sound character of the output. The first picture on the left shows what a theoretically perfect output of a certain pulse would look like. The remaining three pictures show graphically what that same pulse will look like after passing through each of the three filter options on the Big Ego. Tests have shown that ringing after the main signal is less audible than ringing before it, and many people perceive the Asymmetrical filter choices as sounding better, but it’s really a matter of personal preference. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2572/6926/files/BigEgo_manual_07.pdf?5495441154491181254 Seems like someone is playing with ChatGtp ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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