K402 mated with a Beryllium driver

[BigRob573]

Looking at doing a Klipsch K402 build for my HT. I have had Hershey’s, La Scala’s and Cornwalls all heavily modded and they were great. Now I am wanting to build something myself from the ground up with active crossovers. I am starting with the K402 horn and am considering compression drivers. 
 

I would like to use a Beryllium based driver but I am not sure if I can mention the name of the ones that I have. Has anyone tried a Beryllium compression driver on a K402? Should cross around 800hz or so. 
 

Second question is has anybody tried adding a super tweeter to the k402?

[PrestonTom]

Well, you have not given us any idea what the overall design might be (priorities, budget etc). So comments by me and others might be be wildly off the mark, but that is not our fault since you were the one that did not provide the design goals. 

 

That said, I don't believe the K-402 with an adequate driver needs a super tweeter. I say this for several reasons. First, there is not much energy in the highest octave (either from the instruments originally or in the recording). Second, most of us, if we are willing to admit it, don't have very good hearing up at the top of the spectrum. We think we do, but  in reality......... 

That sad, the original, commercial version of the Jubilee was 3-way system and used a K-510 horn with a K-69 driver as a tweeter and the K-402 was limited to the mid-frequencies. In a commercial application the systems are run fairly loud, 12 hrs/day and 7 days/week so they needed a more robust combination of driver & horns. In a home environment a 2-way is fine.

 

Second, although Be drivers can sound wonderful, finding them is very difficult and spares are nearly impossible to find. In either case, those drivers and spare diaphragms can be prohibitively expensive (again you never specified budget considerations). There are others who used Be drivers on the K-402 (JBL 24xx with Truexent diaphragms or simply used TAD 4002 drivers) and reported great success. These were mostly used on the "old" Jubilee systems. 

 

My personal advice is that you should first layout your design goals and priorities. 

Good luck, 

-Tom

 

 

[Coytee]

10 hours ago, BigRob573 said:

Should cross around 800hz or so. 

 

As @PrestonTom has said...hard to help with no guidance.  Someone travelling without a map will always reach their destination!

 

There's a number of folks who are using the TAD 4002 mated with their 402's.  Attached are the PEQ's that were created by Roy, when used on the Underground Jubilee bass bin.  The crossover for the 402 is/was 400 hz.  One of the reasons to create the Jubilee was to raise the crossover point of the bass bin so it could be a 2-way.

 

Though I've got a voice in the back of my head telling me that someone put a tweeter atop the 402/Jubilee (I think) bass bin, I don't recall many comments about how it sounded.  Also....with regard to the Jubilee in a 2-way format verses 3-way format, the 3-way was more about output ability to fill a room verses a need for 'tinkle' (a nod to Ralph who bought a pair in London England)

 

I've never felt the need for any HF improvements but I'll leave that "to each his own".  I DO think dropping a crossover point was a significant improvement in the coherency of the sound so if you can get by without it, I think it helps.)

 

Me not being very technical, I do recall when in Hope, hearing that the HF on the TAD beams a bit.  Looking at the mouth of the horn, I wondered could it be because it's somewhat restricted by the adapter walls???  If so, why not scoot the mouth of the driver closer to the horn so the sound would be able to splay out sooner?

 

Mr. Rigma designed the adapter (also attached) that would replace the TAD adapter and make things work.  My recollection of his trying this was no improvement in sound HOWEVER, I don't think he recurved the PEQ's and it would seem to me, (presuming it worked in theory), it seems to me if you now splay the HF sound, it would not be as focused therefore, you might need to adjust your PEQ's.  As I further understand, he never sent it to Roy to analyze and put into the chamber so it remains an unknown as best I know.

 

Disclosure:  I've got a pair of TAD 4002's and a third one as a spare.  I've  heard them side by side (at the factory) with the other side being either the K69 or maybe K69-A (?)  Been a while!

 

Either way, both sounded fantastic HOWEVER, on a side by side, you could easily discern the TAD over the stock driver.....very easily.  I never really knew what people meant when they said "It was like a veil was lifted from the sound".  After I heard them side by side, that is the only way I can think to describe it!  Using the TAD's was like lifting a veil.

 

 

DX-38 settings for Jubilee with K402 & TAD 4002.pdf TAD+402+rev7.pdf

[Schu]

I am not sure I would be using a beryllium driver for Home Theater... it seems like a terrible waste.

[OO1]

[BigRob573]

12 hours ago, Coytee said:

I am considering several possible options. On the k402 I could go with a Radian 950 or 951BePB or the JBL 2446 with the TruXtnt diaphragm or the Tads you mentioned. I already have a pair of the JBL’s but no Beryllium diaphragm yet, and I have a pair of Radian 950BePB’s which I am not sure will fit in the k402 so I might have to sell them and order a pair of their 1.4” 951BePB’s. Measurements will have to be made to decide what the final combinations will be and what their respective crossover points will be. 

 

I plan to use an AE TD15h for the bottom end. I am also highly considering trying a super tweeter and if I don’t like it I can go back to a 2 way. Should he fairly easy to do since I will be using active crossovers on pro amps and I already own a lot of measurement gear. 
 

if I go with a super tweeter I will have to find a good horn. I would probably go with the Radian 651BePB or 475BePB which are 1” cd’s and should mate well to the beryllium Radian mids on the k402’s. With that being said, this is my first build with a super tweeter. I have built several other large waveguide 2 way speakers with active xovers. I am confident in my skills but I am still learning every day. 
 

Someone mentioned above the former design of the Jub using a Klipsch horn and tweeter in the 3 way config. I can’t recall off hand what horn was used there for the tweeter. But that might be a good candidate for the 1” beryllium Radian 475BePB if I go that route 
 

 

As @PrestonTom has said...hard to help with no guidance.  Someone travelling without a map will always reach their destination!

 

There's a number of folks who are using the TAD 4002 mated with their 402's.  Attached are the PEQ's that were created by Roy, when used on the Underground Jubilee bass bin.  The crossover for the 402 is/was 400 hz.  One of the reasons to create the Jubilee was to raise the crossover point of the bass bin so it could be a 2-way.

 

Though I've got a voice in the back of my head telling me that someone put a tweeter atop the 402/Jubilee (I think) bass bin, I don't recall many comments about how it sounded.  Also....with regard to the Jubilee in a 2-way format verses 3-way format, the 3-way was more about output ability to fill a room verses a need for 'tinkle' (a nod to Ralph who bought a pair in London England)

 

I've never felt the need for any HF improvements but I'll leave that "to each his own".  I DO think dropping a crossover point was a significant improvement in the coherency of the sound so if you can get by without it, I think it helps.)

 

Me not being very technical, I do recall when in Hope, hearing that the HF on the TAD beams a bit.  Looking at the mouth of the horn, I wondered could it be because it's somewhat restricted by the adapter walls???  If so, why not scoot the mouth of the driver closer to the horn so the sound would be able to splay out sooner?

 

Mr. Rigma designed the adapter (also attached) that would replace the TAD adapter and make things work.  My recollection of his trying this was no improvement in sound HOWEVER, I don't think he recurved the PEQ's and it would seem to me, (presuming it worked in theory), it seems to me if you now splay the HF sound, it would not be as focused therefore, you might need to adjust your PEQ's.  As I further understand, he never sent it to Roy to analyze and put into the chamber so it remains an unknown as best I know.

 

Disclosure:  I've got a pair of TAD 4002's and a third one as a spare.  I've  heard them side by side (at the factory) with the other side being either the K69 or maybe K69-A (?)  Been a while!

 

Either way, both sounded fantastic HOWEVER, on a side by side, you could easily discern the TAD over the stock driver.....very easily.  I never really knew what people meant when they said "It was like a veil was lifted from the sound".  After I heard them side by side, that is the only way I can think to describe it!  Using the TAD's was like lifting a veil.

 

 

DX-38 settings for Jubilee with K402 & TAD 4002.pdf 22.44 kB · 1 download TAD+402+rev7.pdf 23.8 kB · 2 downloads

 

[Coytee]

4 hours ago, BigRob573 said:

Someone mentioned above the former design of the Jub using a Klipsch horn and tweeter in the 3 way config. I can’t recall off hand what horn was used there for the tweeter. But that might be a good candidate for the 1” beryllium Radian 475BePB if I go that route 

 

That would be the K510, the "little horn that could"  Here are several images of it.  Interestingly, I don't have easily handy, a picture of the Jubilee with the 510 atop the 402.  They cut a piece of plywood and put a "notch" in it that fit AROUND the K402 and it had maybe 10" above and maybe 4" exposed on the sides.  The 510 fit above the 402 attached to the plywood, all painted black.

 

 

[Coytee]

There is now a 510 "with mumps" that Roy designed, updating these above.  I've never heard it.

 

 

[BigRob573]

On 10/30/2023 at 4:45 PM, Coytee said:

Coytee, would the K510 be a good horn to go on top of the K402 used as a super tweeter? If so, it would be the k402 mated with a Radian 950BePB or 951BePB and the K510 mated with a Radian 475BePB. 
 

I would imagine the K510 has good horizontal dispersion that is a good match to the K402. Only thing is I will have to get creative to design my cabinet and figure out how to mount them so that time alignment is good. Since I will be using active crossovers this should go well. 

I have searched for a long time and no one that I am aware of has done a Klipsch 402 build with a beryllium Radian compression driver. And for sure no one has done one with a 1” Beryllium super tweeter from Radian as well. 

 

DX-38 settings for Jubilee with K402 & TAD 4002.pdf 22.44 kB · 1 download TAD+402+rev7.pdf 23.8 kB · 2 downloads

 

[BigRob573]

I have spent some time comparing the various beryllium compression drivers that I have and have a friend with the Tads. I have listened to the BMS 4594 the JBL 2446 with Truext diaphragms and the Radians. I am here to tell you that to my ears the Radians just sound better. The Tads are excellent but I think the Radians sound better. They measure very similarly with the Radians having a slight edge in my setup. 
 

i can’t wait to find some Klipsch k402’s and a pair of K510’s to start doing some measurements 

[OilyBoy]

You could also go for a Faital HF20AT 

[BigRob573]

So last question, where would I purchase a set of k402 horns?

[OO1]

you pray

[Horn Tube]

I wonder how the Radians with BE sound compared to the TAD's? 

[Islander]

On 11/4/2023 at 3:46 AM, BigRob573 said:

So last question, where would I purchase a set of k402 horns?

 

Why not just call Klipsch?  Last I heard, a pair of K402s complete with stands cost around $1500.  I don't remember if that includes drivers.  Also, what kind of crossover were you thinking of?  The electronic crossovers are more accurate and are fairly simple to reset if you change drivers in the future.  With my speakers, I've gone from La Scalas with K510 horns with K-69-A drivers, La Scala IIs with the same horns and drivers, La Scala IIs with K402 horns and K-69-A drivers, and currently, La Scala IIs with K402 horns and K-691 drivers.  The crossover has always been the Electro-Voice Dx38 24 bit digital audio processor, and all settings for it have been supplied by Roy Delgado.  Rather than bother him, the settings are available here on the Forum.

 

You can see the first incarnation of my JubScalas at the bottom of Coytee's Tuesday at 8:27 am post.  They have custom stands made of 3/4" Plexiglas.  You can see the current version in my avatar picture to the left.  The Hi-Fi Fairy is dusting one of the 402s.

 

As for where I got my 402s, a Forum member sold them to me because he decided to go in a different direction.

[Islander]

On 10/30/2023 at 8:43 PM, OO1 said:

 

I always thought that looked odd, so I left the HF sections in place on my JubScala IIs, but they're disconnected, of course.  It also puts the 402s at a better height, one that emulates having the musicians up on stage, not at floor level in front of me.  It also matches the height of the TV, which is sitting on top of a Belle Klipsch.

[OO1]

On 11/6/2023 at 6:11 AM, Islander said:

 

Why not just call Klipsch?  Last I heard, a pair of K402s complete with stands cost around $1500. 

unless it's changed ,   K-402 purchases required authorization  

[Schu]

I give up... what are they?

[babadono]

@BigRob573 you don't have K402s yet but you are evaluating drivers? Mated to what? I guarantee they will sound different mated to a 402.

And a question to all....can't a pair of K402s be purchase directly from Klipsch as long as drivers are included? I paid $2250 IIRC back in'17 with K691 drivers. Changed out to TAD 4002s immediately with Be diaphragms. So far 2 way UG Jubes...I will add a tweeter for fun someday. Much more concerned with low end extension currently.

[Marvel]

4 hours ago, babadono said:

Much more concerned with low end extension currently.

I know what you will get next...