Lascala cabinet resonance

[Flevoman]

Feel free to do as you wish, Tom. If you believe it's important to continue, be my guest, even if it leads to another 5 pages on this. However, I fail to see the purpose of it. I agree that misconduct should be addressed, and it seems to me it have been adequately done.

[Tom05]

I made only  one humerus post this morning , big deal   , get over it . You’re the one who suggested that I move on , I didn’t like it . Go back and read all of my posts on your thread, you’ll find that I contributed in a helpful way, what’s your problem ?

[Flevoman]

No problem, Tom, and I also don't fully understand why you take it so personal. My suggestion to not dwell on this and continue with our hobby and passion (music/Klipsch) was meant positively. It wasn't directed at you specifically, and certainly not intended to initiate a new discussion.

 

[Tom05]

We all know what’s appropriate to post here, we don’t need direction from you ,I’m not taking anything personal , just reacting to an annoyance . 

[OO1]

[OO1]

Back to the resonance .

[mikebse2a3]

For what it’s worth I personally find it helpful to step back from the keyboard and let some time pass by and then reread post from a calmer perspective. 
 

I truly believe most here have good intentions 🙂

[Schu]

Can you two get a room please... no one wants to see you two bicker and then kiss to make up.

[CWOReilly]

57 minutes ago, Schu said:

Can you two get a room please... no one wants to see you two bicker and then kiss to make up.

Especially the kiss and make up…..

[Tom05]

3 hours ago, Schu said:

. no one wants to see you two bicker and then kiss to make up.

You make a good point 🤓first one this year 

[Tom05]

2 hours ago, CWOReilly said:

Especially the kiss and make up…..

I gotta say you guys are clever 🤓

[KT88]

I always assumed that this forum was neither about political nor erotic content🙄. But maybe the details are exciting🤠

[Tom05]

It’s difficult to find solutions without a problem. True the Lascala’s run a little hot in the 150 hz range, and the op does seem to be sensitive to this . But when this blip is removed and a very nice flat  response has been achieved, the op then perceives a thin response, the exact opposite of the original problem, and all this happening within a 6 db range 🤷.In this case ,finding stereo satisfaction is not likely to happen , as the variation in recordings would far exceed the tolerance of the listener . Equalization is the right tool for this situation ,but several curves will likely be required depending on the recording . There is an implication that runs throughout this thread that a serious fault lies within the Klipsch Lascala , I don’t believe it  , nor should you.

[uams]

On 1/12/2024 at 11:52 PM, Flevoman said:

I started this topic because, despite how fantastic I found the AL5 to sound, I often heard a disturbing resonance in songs. When listening to the same songs on my headphones or other speakers, this resonance wasn't present. I could not determine the cause of what I was hearing. Recording? Acoustics? Or perhaps the resonance often mentioned in relation to the LaScala? .

Thanks to all the information obtained on this forum, assistance from @mikebse2a3, and extensive reading on Google, I now have a reasonably clear understanding of what's going on. I finally know that what I hear is a bump in the 100Hz-160Hz range.

 

The pronounced audibility of this bump is, in my situation at least, a combination of factors.

 

- First and foremost, recording plays a role. Some songs are recorded with a certain dynamic that enhances the effect.
- In my case, room acoustics also play a definite role. I remember, at the beginning of this journey, placing the speakers lengthwise in the room. It didn't eliminate the issue, but it reduced it. However, placing my setup this way is not an option.

- The Amplifier Choice.

Currently, I have five different amplifiers, and the choice of amplifier definitely influences the extent to which this bump can be accentuated. I own a beautiful 300B SET amplifier, but its warm character amplifies this range even more. At the moment, I find the Melody 2A3 PP and the 45 SET to sound most pleasing because they produce a cleaner sound, minimizing the amplification of the bump. (edited :I forgot to mention this one) 

- My personal sensitivity to this bump is undeniable. I am convinced that I perceive it more strongly than others. It's an annoying background noise that doesn't align with the open and detailed character the speaker possesses. However, others who have listened to my setup didn't hear what I meant or simply didn't find it bothersome.
- The speaker itself, I am convinced that the LaScala accentuates this range. Whether it's due to cabinet resonance or horn properties, I'm not sure. But the LaScala emphasizes the range around 100Hz-160Hz. I am convinced of this because there is ample information, including tests with LaScala, consistently showing a bump around 150Hz. Additionally, I conducted an acoustic measurement with DSpeaker, and comparing it with other measurements reveals a consistently similar curve around 100Hz-160Hz.

 

Thanks to a tip from Mike, I bought a DSpeaker to address acoustic issues. It's not exactly an audiophile device, but it works. When the bump in that range is corrected by DSpeaker, the sound I found so bothersome is indeed gone. I am pleased with this because now I know exactly what it is, where it is, and I have control over it. So you might think, let DSpeaker do its job, and I have nothing to complain about. Well, not entirely.

With this fantastic correction, the speaker's character has also changed significantly. The sound is much cleaner; I can better follow the low end and hear more detail. When switching between correction on and off, the difference is significant. Only when the bump is truly gone do you realize how much coloration it adds to the music. However, I miss the punch and kick. The sax lacks body, and the same goes for the vocals—they sound thinner. Where has that typical LaScala sound gone?

 

Interestingly, my own conclusion is that the LaScala's sound character seems to derive in part from the bump. Eliminating it also eliminates that characteristic LaScala sound that I appreciate. Apparently, as the LaScala accentuates this range, it becomes more critical. If, due to acoustics, this range is also emphasized a bit too much, it becomes overwhelming for me, and I can hear an annoying thickening in some songs.

For me, the solution will not be to use the room corrector because it eliminates too much for my taste. Instead, I need to find a way to lower that range by a few dB. Just enough to no longer perceive it as bothersome but still preserving enough to let the LaScala be the LaScala. In theory, this can also be done with the DSpeaker, but this device doesn't come across as very audiophile. It pains me to permanently incorporate it into my setup.

Anyway, this weekend I will conduct an A/B test with my girlfriend, and if there is truly no downgrade in the music for me, well... no matter how much trouble I have with this device, it does its job well, so I'll keep it in the setup for now 😉

 

May I thank everyone who has brainstormed with me and provided input. I am genuinely happy that I now have a clear understanding of what I hear, can articulate it, and know what to do about it. And to avoid giving the wrong impression, I think the AL5 speakers are fantastic. I listen to them every day for several hours and genuinely enjoy them.

 

Melvin

I owned a pair of Simon Mears Audio Uccello speakers until about 3-4 years ago, and they're an homage to the Klipsch Belle's. The Uccello's were built from ground up with the same bass horn design (w/Crites CW1526C woofers), but with different, stacked ply mids and tweeter horns, B&C compression drivers (DCM 50 and DE10) and top-of-line ALK crossovers. Lovely speakers, wonderful craftsmanship, and that particular bass horn coloration in the 125Hz vicinity.

 

I heard that coloration immediately when first auditioning them in Brighton, UK, but nonetheless fell in love with their sound; so wonderfully alive, vibrant, present, dynamic and organic. Over time though the mid bass coloration got to me, and I tried out digital correction in both the amplitude and time domain, which took care of the mid bass bump. It also corrected other things, though the FIR-filters gave off a peculiar "ghosting" effect that preceded more dynamic outbursts.

 

At the time I also went on to have the Uccello's subs augmented, initially with an SVS SB16-Ultra (marred by overhang and lack of integration with the U's), and eventually with a pair of MicroWrecker tapped horn subs that I still own, and that complemented the Uccello's wonderfully.

 

Through it all though I began to feel that what I wanted was something else than what the Uccello's were intrinsically, on their own; they were high-passed around 80Hz to the subs, and had DRC run over them as well - as such everything was very, very good, apart from the ghosting effect and the fact that I found them to lack height of presentation. Eventually it gave me the feeling of simply letting the Uccello's be what they originally were - full-range, sans DRC and subs, and preferably with a low wattage, high quality SET - but it felt incompatible with my ultimate goals and desires. 

 

It comes down to the bass horn of the Uccello's/Belle's/La Scala's simply being to small; it stops acting as a horn just over 100Hz (close to the resonance peak here), and throat restrictions (i.e.: from higher compression ratio to aid upper end extension, which is originally hampered by the horn being too small) seems to provoke air velocity problems here, with horn wall resonances only making matters worse. You want a better mid bass horn you need to accommodate bigger size and have the horn act as a horn in its entire range, with an overall smoother as well as cleaner upper end response to follow. But we all know size is a problem when seeking approval in domestic environments, and thus problems arise with horns. A truncated front loaded horn in the subs region is less of a problem than over the mid bass and lower mids, where the sonic penalties are more obvious, but still I prefer tapped horn subs over truncated FLH subs. 

 

I would say to quite a few here: love your Klipsch speakers if that's your natural inclination, but there's no reason to be married to the company and get defensive when flaws in design are pointed out or otherwise implied through listening impressions. It's just the physics of things, nothing personal. For horns to be their best size needs to follow accordingly - that's just the way it is. 

[Shakeydeal]

I’m not going to be an apologist or a fan boi. No speaker is perfect. But as I type this, I’m grooving to some Joe Bonomassa on my LS IIs with an ear to ear grin. Resonance and all, I’m still digging ‘em.

[KT88]

1 hour ago, uams said:

I owned a pair of Simon Mears Audio Uccello speakers until about 3-4 years ago, and they're an homage to the Klipsch Belle's. The Uccello's were built from ground up with the same bass horn design (w/Crites CW1526C woofers), but with different, stacked ply mids and tweeter horns, B&C compression drivers (DCM 50 and DE10) and top-of-line ALK crossovers. Lovely speakers, wonderful craftsmanship, and that particular bass horn coloration in the 125Hz vicinity.

 

I heard that coloration immediately when first auditioning them in Brighton, UK, but nonetheless fell in love with their sound; so wonderfully alive, vibrant, present, dynamic and organic. Over time though the mid bass coloration got to me, and I tried out digital correction in both the amplitude and time domain, which took care of the mid bass bump. It also corrected other things, though the FIR-filters gave off a peculiar "ghosting" effect that preceded more dynamic outbursts.

 

At the time I also went on to have the Uccello's subs augmented, initially with an SVS SB16-Ultra (marred by overhang and lack of integration with the U's), and eventually with a pair of MicroWrecker tapped horn subs that I still own, and that complemented the Uccello's wonderfully.

 

Through it all though I began to feel that what I wanted was something else than what the Uccello's were intrinsically, on their own; they were high-passed around 80Hz to the subs, and had DRC run over them as well - as such everything was very, very good, apart from the ghosting effect and the fact that I found them to lack height of presentation. Eventually it gave me the feeling of simply letting the Uccello's be what they originally were - full-range, sans DRC and subs, and preferably with a low wattage, high quality SET - but it felt incompatible with my ultimate goals and desires. 

 

It comes down to the bass horn of the Uccello's/Belle's/La Scala's simply being to small; it stops acting as a horn just over 100Hz (close to the resonance peak here), and throat restrictions (i.e.: from higher compression ratio to aid upper end extension, which is originally hampered by the horn being too small) seems to provoke air velocity problems here, with horn wall resonances only making matters worse. You want a better mid bass horn you need to accommodate bigger size and have the horn act as a horn in its entire range, with an overall smoother as well as cleaner upper end response to follow. But we all know size is a problem when seeking approval in domestic environments, and thus problems arise with horns. A truncated front loaded horn in the subs region is less of a problem than over the mid bass and lower mids, where the sonic penalties are more obvious, but still I prefer tapped horn subs over truncated FLH subs. 

 

I would say to quite a few here: love your Klipsch speakers if that's your natural inclination, but there's no reason to be married to the company and get defensive when flaws in design are pointed out or otherwise implied through listening impressions. It's just the physics of things, nothing personal. For horns to be their best size needs to follow accordingly - that's just the way it is. 

 

uams, two questions, can you explain a little more about your quote „It comes down to the bass horn of the Uccello's/Belle's/La Scala's simply being to small; it stops acting as a horn just over 100Hz (close to the resonance peak here), and throat restrictions (i.e.: from higher compression ratio to aid upper end extension, which is originally hampered by the horn being too small) seems to provoke air velocity problems here“ and also can you describe this ghosting effect generated bei the FIR filters? What you hear regarding this ghosting effect and if you are in the know what causes this effect? Thanks.

[mikebse2a3]

23 hours ago, Tom05 said:

It’s difficult to find solutions without a problem. True the Lascala’s run a little hot in the 150 hz range, and the op does seem to be sensitive to this . But when this blip is removed and a very nice flat  response has been achieved, the op then perceives a thin response, the exact opposite of the original problem, and all this happening within a 6 db range 🤷.In this case ,finding stereo satisfaction is not likely to happen , as the variation in recordings would far exceed the tolerance of the listener .

 

Based on my own experience with the DSpeaker and my La Scala AL5 I believe with some fine tuning the OP will be able to reach a place of satisfaction with more of his music being enjoyable.

 

The “emphasis” in the 100Hz - 200Hz region is audible and I personally consider it a significant improvement and that a more accurate reproduction of the recordings are achieved when it’s effects on the recordings are removed.

 

 

 

 

23 hours ago, Tom05 said:

There is an implication that runs throughout this thread that a serious fault lies within the Klipsch Lascala , I don’t believe it  , nor should you.

 

I respectfully disagree and I certainly don’t believe the OP, myself or others discussing the “emphasis” in the 100Hz -200Hz region of the La Scala AL5 is wrong or misleading anyone. 

 

It’s really simple in my mind and that is if you want to fine tune and thus improve the reproduction of the La Scala then implement the PEQs that Roy has suggested for active user who have that capability. This is easily achieved by active methods but my guess is that it is impractical in passive crossover designs (impedance would drop to low in value with compensation network) or “I believe” Roy would  have implemented it in those as well.

 

@Flevoman wants the most enjoyment he can achieve from his system as I do and I believe most anyone on this forum wants so he is searching for the answers to achieve that goal wherever it leads and thus started this thread simply to find answers and solutions.

 

miketn🙂

[Tom05]

Yes , no doubt audible, very much so for Flevoman . I was impressed with  the   DSpeaker results graph. Maybe a middle /compromise position could work for him , but my point was just  that there seems  to  be a very small acceptable range to work with here , very sensitive hearing I suspect. I’ve also acknowledged the aberration in response , so I would also be guilty of any wrong or misleading statements , I don’t think anyone had any of those . The thread  just seemed a little cringeworthy at times ,going on and on about the flawed Lascala bass , that’s what  I saw  , as a forum member, I try to be a  good ambassador to  the brand , protect and promote. Thanks for the reply 🤓

[Marvel]

This is a thread veer/side story:

 

I read an interview with Rupert Neve, whose company makes/made high end audio consoles. He had a big name engineer who called him about a problem with one of his big mixers. There was a noise at about 40Khz. He could hear it... they tracked it down to a bad solder joint on a channel.

 

I am actually glad my hearing isn't that good.

[Don A. Childs]

Seeing alot of very good tips above, let me once again suggest a HUGE non-invasive tweak. The HF and LF bins on Lascala II and ALS beat the living 'sound' out of each other in a discordant interaction. I NEVER would have believed such a claim until I experimented in placing "purple" cushions between the two sections. I know there are those preinstalled rubber feet but the cushions really cleared up the sound overall. (Side effect was a 'ringing/cathedral' effect) Taking a hint I splurged and purchased 6 Iso-puck 76's to place between the two sections. I half way anticipated returning them since I expected little difference, HOWEVER the clarifying effect was dramatic. I feel like a selfish, self centered creature if I don't attempt to get this news out to my fellow Lascala owners. The "resonance" issue is aggravated by this unfortunate interaction between the two halves. I wonder if the designers thought so too when they installed those rubber feet between the bins. More of that idea contributes to tremendous clarity enhancement! I heard the Nobsound springs maybe a cheaper way to go, then there's the Townshend pods which I wish I had bought instead in the first place since the returns are so impressive.