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Lascala cabinet resonance


Flevoman

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You're trying to tell me that there is a physical displacement issue between the HF and LF that exacerbates a side wall resonance?

 

you're joking, right?

so you can place your hand on the HF during playback and physically feel it vibrate at say 85bd-90db?

 

they're your speakers to be sure, and you can bolt the HF to the LF for all I care, but don't think your 'discordant interaction' anecdotal experience is anything but... anecdotal.

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My point about isolating the HF bin from the LF bin was...resonance overall not specifically at a certain frequency. We know the bass bin produces tremendous vibration. This in turn vibrates the upper bin and both horns in the Lascala. (And the side walls, etc.) Without this bass vibration effecting the upper so much (my 'iso-puck 76's don't quite really 'isolate' but minimize) the over all clarity is enhanced because the resonance throughout the frequency range is not (so much) allowed to have this polluting effect either on the top or bottom. Its a little like placing an opera singer on a vibrating surface as she sings. Her voice will be effected by shaking her as she sings. Well, despite the poor illustration, I'm still curious if Lascala II or AL5 owners can try this and let me know if it doesn't improve audible clarity. If it doesn't then it doesn't. Maybe my floating yurt floor was the problem needing a solution.  The same clarity happens when vibration is eliminated from turntables, CD players, speaker cables, and amplifiers. Anecdotal is the best I've got. But if anyone else tries this and discovers an improvement I'll have an anecdotal friend at least. 

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22 hours ago, Don A. Childs said:

  We know the bass bin produces tremendous vibration. This in turn vibrates the upper bin and both horns in the Lascala. (And the side walls, etc.) 

nope  , the AL-5 / LS II do not produce tremendous vibrations , and I will tell you why  ?   klipsch use anechoic chambers since 1980 to test their designs in order to route out issues such as vibrations  , 1 inch MDF is overkill  , the LS-II / AL-5 do not vibrate , they are over engineered  . 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, OO1 said:

nope  , the AL-5 / LS II do not produce tremendous vibrations , and I will tell you why  ?   klipsch use anechoic chambers since 1980 to test their designs in order to route out issues such as vibrations  , 1 inch MDF is overkill  , the LS-II / AL-5 do not vibrate , they are over engineered  . 

 

What about the LaScala before 1980? 

 

 

15 minutes ago, avguytx said:

Is punctuation a lost art?

nope     ?   

🤪

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12 hours ago, OO1 said:

nope  , the AL-5 / LS II do not produce tremendous vibrations , and I will tell you why  ?   klipsch use anechoic chambers since 1980 to test their designs in order to route out issues such as vibrations  , 1 inch MDF is overkill  , the LS-II / AL-5 do not vibrate , they are over engineered  . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everything vibrates. YOU are vibrating right now as you read this. Vibration control is a real thing and most every component in your system benefits from it if you are willing to put forth the effort. It's also another reason why massive entertainment centers are detrimental to the sound. What you sit your components on matters, so why wouldn't you expect vibration control to benefit speakers?

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Maybe its just my hands shaking from too much bourbon last night but....(punctuation misuse of ellipsis intentional "for effect").....putting my hand on the bass bin I can feel significant vibration in certain places on side walls. Obviously this isn't all bad even as it is equally obvious its unavoidable with that driver pumping out bass frequencies. However, whatever we may think about these "good vibrations," the empirical test is actually having a Klipsch Lascala owner [AL5 or II only] put something between the two bins and objectively report the results. With mine I noticed that now I enjoy a little higher volumes much more due to the HF bin not being 'disturbed' as much. Notwithstanding, everything vibrates constantly throughout the universe. Signed : Klipsch Fan boy and inveterate tweaker (not twerker) 

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Some have a problem writing and typing, I sure do. A stroke screwed up my left side and hand, and I forget tapping keys all the way constantly. But usually my point is made without an English lesson from an indoors type.. Just be glad I was once a rocket scientist. I was given a ration of unnecessary sht from someone a few days ago ..not here though. 👌Another day out of bed. Blessed...~Mike

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On 1/21/2024 at 8:56 PM, Don A. Childs said:

My point about isolating the HF bin from the LF bin was...resonance overall not specifically at a certain frequency. We know the bass bin produces tremendous vibration. This in turn vibrates the upper bin and both horns in the Lascala. (And the side walls, etc.) Without this bass vibration effecting the upper so much (my 'iso-puck 76's don't quite really 'isolate' but minimize) the over all clarity is enhanced because the resonance throughout the frequency range is not (so much) allowed to have this polluting effect either on the top or bottom. Its a little like placing an opera singer on a vibrating surface as she sings. Her voice will be effected by shaking her as she sings. Well, despite the poor illustration, I'm still curious if Lascala II or AL5 owners can try this and let me know if it doesn't improve audible clarity. If it doesn't then it doesn't. Maybe my floating yurt floor was the problem needing a solution.  The same clarity happens when vibration is eliminated from turntables, CD players, speaker cables, and amplifiers. Anecdotal is the best I've got. But if anyone else tries this and discovers an improvement I'll have an anecdotal friend at least. 

As a LSII owner I can confirm that the bass bin does get some decent vibration if you crank them loud, Loud as in 112db at 10 feet.

But the LSII tophat has large rubber feet that fit in sockets on top of bass bin and even at that SPL lvl there is only a tinny amount of vibration in the tophat.The bigger issue by far is the ductwork rattling in the ceiling, pictures rattling, stuff falling off shelves ect ;)

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Flevoman I noticed something with my interlink cables that reminded me of the resonance problem with your LaScala. I have always used ready-made RCA cables, most of them with one running direction. Often the shield was only connected on one side, and the conductors were " quasi symmetrical". Now, out of curiosity, I have made up my own cheap Canare L-4E6S interlinks. The net is full of a lot of wrong and maybe right advice on how to configure an RCA cable. Most people say that they only connect the shield on the source side. The Canare L-4E6S is actually a star-quad microphone cable, it is used successfully in many studios as an XLR cable as well. On the forums of sound engineers and studio workers, however, it is emphasized that this cable must have the shield connected on both sides, even as an RCA cable, because only then does it really shield. In addition, the negative conductor together with the shield should have an even lower resistance than the „hot“ wire. Be that as it may, I tried it out and ended up using my ears as a benchmark.
1) Canare with only the shield on the receiving side: cloudy and undynamic
2) Shield only on the transmitting side, very dynamic but with just such a dull resonating sound around 100 to 150 Hz.
3) Shield on both sides: The thickened, flabby upper bass range has completely disappeared, even on different speakers. It is a clear and very defined spatial sound image with deep resonance-free bass...at least there is no added boominess.
Now I don't know if you are using RCA cables at all. But if you do, are they quasi-balanced cables or do they have the ground connected on both sides? If you happen to be using quasi-balanced cables, try a different RCA cable that has the shield connected on both sides, even if it's a cheap one just for a try. My next experiment will be RCA coax cables. A very friendly Japanese employee of Canare in Düsseldorf recommended them to me on the phone as the best for RCA.

 

I don't know if my post is of any significance, but I didn't want to leave it untried

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 8 months later...
On 1/15/2024 at 1:50 AM, KT88 said:

 

uams, two questions, can you explain a little more about your quote „It comes down to the bass horn of the Uccello's/Belle's/La Scala's simply being to small; it stops acting as a horn just over 100Hz (close to the resonance peak here), and throat restrictions (i.e.: from higher compression ratio to aid upper end extension, which is originally hampered by the horn being too small) seems to provoke air velocity problems here“ and also can you describe this ghosting effect generated bei the FIR filters? What you hear regarding this ghosting effect and if you are in the know what causes this effect? Thanks.

 

Been a while, sorry. To your first question: a midbass horn being too small is how I tried to describe it earlier in acoustic terms and what it imparts with regard to sonic consequences. You try to make up for frequency irregularities in the upper range (caused by the truncation of the horn, which also impacts sensitivity) with a higher compression rate (smaller slot area in front of the woofer), which in turn creates new problems with throat constrictions and thus moves the issue to another, lower frequency range. Let size have its say and you're in a better place to have your cake and eat it too, so to speak. 

 

As for your second question wrt. named effect of the FIR-filters, that's a technical area I'm not well versed into, but suffice to say the heavier processing with FIR-filtration and the thousands of phase bands here can cause audible "traces" that simply reveal themselves as named "ghosting" or droning sound that precede dynamic outbursts. With proper processing power it shouldn't be an issue, but pragmatics point to it as being a more general phenomena (i.e.: processing power is an issue here). 

 

A non-truncated, fully horn-loaded speaker setup would be quite the thing, and it needn't be Vox Olympian + Elysian expensive to achieve that (a system which seemingly even "cheaps out" on the midbass horn). It's a matter of (large) size and, of course, proper design, and that's absolutely doable for the "average Joe" economically speaking. The real issue comes down to it needing to be a DIY project with an entrepreneurial spirit to boot; the sheer will and balls to go the distance, and a tolerant spouse as well. 

 

I'm contemplating different speaker scenarios ahead, but a fully horn-loaded one (non-truncated!) isn't one in the cards presently, sad to say. Not due to spouse issues here, but simply because non-truncated horn subs take up serious space - certainly if one aims for 25-30Hz honest extension. Question than is whether it's better to go for a non-horn approach across the board to maintain technological consistency rather than mixing horns and direct radiators? As is I use a large format horn + compression driver from just over 600Hz on up, then dual 15" direct radiators (per channel) down to ~85Hz, and below that down to 20-25Hz tapped horn subs - all of it fully actively configured. A technological mix for sure, but definitely capable and very coherent sounding. Oh, the decisions...

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