Daughter Was Deployed Today

[AndyKubicki]

Rowoo,

Isn't it funny how even liberals don't want to be called liberals? They make up the term "progressive", as if the all these old things that did not and will not work which "progressives" embrace, are brilliant new strategies from our best intellectual thinkers!

[HDBRbuilder]

Andy Kubicki,

RE: "As Moe Howard used to say: 'I am going to explain this so that even you can understand it.'"

The Army has another terminology for this action. It is called "Private-proofing" the operation order.

[TBrennan]

Andy---I'm a Liberal and proud of it, a 2-fisted FDR New Deal Liberal.

Among Conservative ideas that didn't work, just in American history:

Monarchy

Slavery

Property qualifications for voting

Laisse Faire Capitalism

Jim Crow

Prohibition

Sodomy laws

Not letting women vote

Klu Klux Klan

White Citizens Council

I gotta go to work, I could think of some more.

[HDBRbuilder]

"among conservative ideas that didn't work"....

"monarchy"...I sure am glad that a despotic dictatorship doesn't fall into THAT category...and is so much more in-line with a true democratic republic!!

"slavery"...I sure am glad that a nation's population that daily fears for the words any members of it may utter bringing upon those members(AND their families) instant torture and execution doesn't fall into THAT category!

"not letting women vote"...ibid.

etc...etc...etc...

DOH!

Sidenote:

"no way am I gonna destroy my missiles"...few days later:

"ok, I will destroy my missiles"...few days later:

"yep, he is destroying his misiles...it outta be done in about three weeks or so"...few days later:

"No reason to continue destroying my missiles if the Americans are still gonna invade"....yesterday:

"ok...I am gonna send a report about my WMD status to you folks in a week or so with a PROPOSAL to EVENTUALLY give you evidence they have all been destroyed"....

Translation: "Man, do I have these idiots in the news media and the United Nations fooled...this delaying tactic is working like a charm! HA HA! When those damned Americans finally invade, it will be so damned hot here that they will suffocate in their chemical-protective suits and die like flies!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Bush's thoughts: "That lying SOB ain't got ME fooled! My guys are still gonna kick his A$$ ...AS SCHEDULED!!"

[whell]

Tom:

You truly need a history lesson here:

JIm Crow laws: "The Congress had passed the Civil Rights Act in 1875, making it illegal to discriminate on the basis of race, but there was a national backlash against civil rights that led to the Supreme Court's nullification of the Civil Rights Act in 1883. North and south began a period of reconciliation, characterized by acquiescence on the part of Northern liberals and government officials to the desires of the white south to institutionalize its discriminatory and racist beliefs.

During the early years of the Wilson administration (1913-1917), the Democratic Representatives submitted more racist legislation than had been introduced to any previous Congress. Disfranchised and demoralized, few blacks voted during these years, leading to an even greater indifference of both parties to the black vote. The Republicans did not need black votes to control Congress, and Democrats did not care about a black constituency.

When legislation was introduced to protect blacks, Democrats convinced Republicans to join them in their disregard for civil rights and suffrage for blacks. Congressman L.C. Dyer of St. Louis submitted an anti-lynching bill in 1922 that was shelved when Southern Democrats threatened a filibuster in the Senate. Southern Democrats regularly blocked the efforts of a few liberal Congressmen to pass protective legislation for blacks. Republicans continually gave in to the demands of the Southern Democrats, and President Harding (1921-1924) did nothing to interfere, nor did his successors, until the late 1930s. " from PBS.org. In other words, it wasn't about conservative or liberal, it was about politics.

As far as your other "examples", don't have time to poke holes in them right now, but I'll be back later.

[Fish]

The USA can allways be counted on to do the right thing,when all else fails.Winston C.

[hwatkins]

Hello Whell -

I stayed away from this one as long as i could. As to your "History Lesson" - I believe Tom did not focus on 'Republican vs. Democrat' he focused on conservative vs. liberal. The parties reversed roles near FDR - prior to that the Republicans were the more liberal of the two - although the change started around the turn of the century. Looks like both parties ventured toward the center and slipped across to the respective dark side as the votes poured in.

All (and that is not an embellishment) the old Southern Democrats are now Republicans.

Tom's list is accurate - the conservative 'like us' approach can be very dangerous and is shown through history to have some very severe consequences when radically applied. As to an argument for or against something - I prefer history as experienced information, not the sole factor for decision making.

BTW - neither being liberal or conservative makes (or doean't make) one a Hawk. Interestingly enough I have both liberal and hawk tendencies. Probably could be good revenue fodder for a Psychiatrist

[whell]

Henry:

The intent of my post was not to focus on Republican versus conservative. In fact, I did state at the end that is was more about politics (geographical politics) more than it was about liberal versus conservative.

Sorry if that was not clear.

[kev313]

HDBR,

We disagree on some points here and that's cool. I certainly respect your right to have a different opinion. What's not coolis using terms like "camel-jockey." You sound like a real decent guy and I'm sure you didn't mean that as a class statement, but it does seem to speak to race rather than political affiliation. I mean, we are talking about "Bad Saddam." Not "Bad Arabs," right?

[AndyKubicki]

Liberals, conservatives, republicans, neo-cons, democrats, moderates, progressives, etc, are rather unique in meaning. Sometimes important, sometimes not. Why you would try to deny me the distinction is not clear to me

Mark, I'm not denying you that distinction...your previous posts on the war issue are nothing new, and I have tried to show how others have thought the same way in the past and the utter failure of pacifism with regard to maniacal, hateful dictators. Some time we can have a discussion on other topics where you may truely be progressive...I just don't see it here.

Failure to think INDEPENDENTLY and FRESHLY about an ever evolving world is the number one cause of distress in our civilization. Without fully independent thinking and analysis we would remain in the Stone Age perpetually.

Ah! Agreed! But failure to look at history to those who have been there, done that, and ignore potential lessons will also bring us closer to the stone age.

The number of party hacks who can actually think successfuly - in the way the world actually advances - is nil.

Yer painting with a broad brush there, Mark. Cerainly, there must be some politicians whose thought process you appreciate, no?

[HDBRbuilder]

Kev,

I would NEVER classify all people of arab descent in that manner...it was aimed SOLELY at SADDAM HUSSEIN...but I will edit to a more appropriate terminology for the sake of others who may not see this. Thank you!

[hwatkins]

Whell -

Got it - we are (and were) cool.

Boys and girls -

This is starting to remind me of Monty Python's 'Argument Clinic'. Although it is kind of fun.

Remember I am a liberal, and while I enjoy the Rush Limbaugh bashing I do have to point out that Colonialism is, unfortunately, far from dead. It is still practiced by the United States (Puerto Rico to name one) - it may come under many variations (a favorite of mine is 'commonwealth') but is still more prevelant than most would know. Granted, it takes a much different form than the enslaved native approach of days gone by, yet it still exists. And yes, there is always a portioned of unbargained rule dished out by the nation in charge of the colony. It is dying out ever so slowly...

As to the start of the post (since I just joined) let's all remember our friends, acquaintences, family and nieghbors that will take part in this war. Yep, looks like this will happen regardless (which is darned interesting) and those folks that accept their dangerous role as troops for our country need to be in our thoughts and prayers (for those that do so).

Now to really big problems --- I think you should have to pass an IQ test before getting a drivers license and a drivers license should be required to vote! Now if Ashcroft would jump on that bandwagon he would have a supporter (I am still not sure he has interpreted the constitution in the same way as me, but to each his own..)

[RangerSix]

A Message from England to America

Tony Parsons ... Daily Mirror ... September 11, 2002

One year ago; the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with PolPot's Mountain of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps. An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing -- nobody deserves this fate.

Surely there could be consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil.

But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.

There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country; too loud, too rich, too full of themselves, and so much happier than Europeans -- but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children -- not just Americans, but from dozens of countries -- were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the planes, was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands, wives, and children, some unborn.

And these people brought it on themselves? Their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11.

Remember ... remember.... remember... the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive.

Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers. Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.

Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum.

Remember ...remember ...

And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked up without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex....

So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq -- that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that -- and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war. The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell" if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.

But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -- assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle...

But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be -- rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers.

Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department.

To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange center, Oh Mighty One!

Remember.... remember... September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.

No, do more than remember. Never forget.

[rowooo]

hwatkins..."I think you should have to pass an IQ test before getting a drivers license and a drivers license should be required to vote". Being the Liberal that you admitted you are, you should realize the LAST thing the Democratic party would want to do is require individuals to partake in an IQ test before allowing them the priviledge to vote. You thought last years election results were ugly............

[Audio Flynn]

Among Conservative ideas that didn't work, just in American history:

Laisse Faire Capitalism

Sodomy laws

I almost forgot you were on the Hillary for President in 2008 pro sodomy platform with a minor in Laisse Faire Socialism.

I continue to be enlightened.

I can feel myself shucking my neanderthal capitalistic shackles as I type.

And drawn to the light of secular humanism, while I toss the Ten Commandments in my wake.

If I remain open to the unfettered expession of my subconcious whims; I'll soon be on the guest list for Michael's next picnic at Neverland.

[TBrennan]

Flynn----What's wrong with sodomy? I figure that what adults do is thier own business. Did you know that in some states getting a blow-job from your own wife is considered sodomy and is illegal? No? I didn't think so.

This is an example of Conservative hypocrisy. You want more freedom for business to f*ck people but less freedom for people to actually f*ck.

I guess you didn't learn your history, perhaps being too busy learning computers and other White-Collar vocational courses to do any serious scholastic work. Laisse Faire Capitalism was a bust-out. Capitalism with social controls and responsibilities works fine. Unless you're actually in favor of Big Trusts, starvation wages, child labor and death on the job.

[TBrennan]

whell---If you think you can give me a history lesson I'm all ears. Though as Watkins pointed out you missed my point completely here. I'm pretty good on history, have over 1000 books on the subject.

I'm eager to hear your defenses of property qualifications for voting and The Fugitive Slave Act. :-)

[Audio Flynn]

The first and foremost definition of sodomy is

"sexual intercourse with a member of the same sex or with an animal"

I is just a simpleton; but definition one just aint quite right activities to yall.

certainly oral or anal with the same sex qualifies as definition number two.

Good thing there is always a liberal availiable to tell me how stupid I am.

I might get so uppity I could think I don't need Tom Daschle to do my thinkin for me.

I am at peace once again.

[RangerSix]

----------------

On 3/3/2003 9:38:28 PM TBrennan wrote:

I'm eager to hear your defenses of property qualifications for voting and The Fugitive Slave Act. :-)

----------------

Anyone ever see the movie "Good Will Hunting"? TBrennan reminds me of the Michael Bolton dude.

"How ya like them apples?"

[AndyKubicki]

Mark, I have just completed an exhaustive review of most of your posts. You are correct. You have not been in favor of pacifism, but containment. This containment, which you claim works so well, has allowed Saddam to acquire the weapons he has today, so I question the effectiveness. You have also been very anti-Bush, to a point that I think much of it is emotion driven.

We do agree that much needs to be done here at home...borders, better security at airports etc.

So why do you try to run this crap past me like this? I'll tell you why I think you try it. Because you are accustomed to "hearing" Rush Limbaugh style debate. Which is the FURTHEST thing one can imagine from "debate." It is name calling and howling of aphorisms and cliches. It is WWF.

It couldn't possibly because the one post where you did state your position is burried under all the twists and turns this debate has taken. I made the mistake of looking for it from the end, rather than at the beginning.

You can't seriously think people who run the world argue this way, do you? Let me know when Rush gets invited to solve the Middle East Problem. Or, gets his Nobel Prize.

Frankly, you're generally confused about how arguments are made. You think of argument, not in the context of reasoned debate, or science, but in the context of two men yelling at each other. "My neighbors had a bigass argument." Just go back and read your own sentence trying to impute me as a pacifist when if you had read any of my posts you will see none of that.

Now who's doing the painting? And how are you painting me? As you see the typical Rush listener! Your first mistake is calling what Rush does a debate. Very little of his program is devoted to debate, much of it is monologue. The program is about what he thinks, by his own admission. He may have callers, but only very few end up in a "debate". Only those who can think and articulate their arguments enough to make themselves interesting without getting into name calling get to debate. Rush has kept many such callers on for extended time. Rush does have incredible talent in that he points out the silliness of the left in a very humerous way. But you need to get over Rush if you can't enjoy him. And let's not leave out Sean Hannity, Dennis Prager and Hugh Hewitt among others. One of the clearest thinkers and best debaters is Dennis Prager. But you would surely discount him in some way too.

Once again, you fail to realize that most of us who listen to this type of talk radio do so because we finally heard someone articulate what we think about some things! It's such a refreshing change from the left slant present on NPR and the major networks. But no! You have to see it as we (the listeners) are following them (the talk radio crowd). We can't think for ourselves and have our talk gurus do that for us! Give me a break! Listen yourself and listen to the callers....some offer extremely thoughtful ideas and positions. But I don't think you could get through more than a few minutes of listening to people you don't agree with.