Dave1291 Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Blah, picked one up at auction someone had w/a system. Basically a heavy duty power switch me thinks. Listed at a k and I paid 200 for it. It is what it is. Tons of hype but does that floor really drop? Only floor I ever saw drop was while standing up against the wall riding a spinning ride at an amusement part. Yea, ok, more rocket science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 16 hours ago, RobMarshall said: Please, any power conditioner experts help me do a better job explaining the grounding issue. On relatively inexpensive power conditioners it is probably illegal for them to isolate the safety ground connection. And it SHOULD NOT be done. If you have a noise problem figure out where and between which pieces of equipment and fix that interconnect/interface. https://indianaaes.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf review the document at this link..you will then know as much as the greatest minds on noise know. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Khorns Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 22 minutes ago, babadono said: On relatively inexpensive power conditioners it is probably illegal for them to isolate the safety ground connection. And it SHOULD NOT be done. At the risk of being nit-picky, maybe. To be nauseatingly accurate, if the PC uses an isolation transformer the input ground (house/utility) must be totally isolated from the output ground (iso transformer). Grounding needs to be at the source of the power, and in the case of an iso transformer, is the iso transformer secondary side (this is a separately derived power source per NFPA 70 (the National Electric Code). The primary side grounds back to the house/utility and the two must be separate for effective noise isolation, and I believe safety. This is also true of double conversion UPS's Not interested in an argument or long technical discussion, but this is the correct situation. Other than noise from digital sources (high frequency pulses switching between 1's and 0's), other noise comes from a voltage difference between the ground and neutral (the infamous ground loop). This voltage must always be zero or noise could result. Just about any source of noise that can occur in audio systems that I can think of is a result of a voltage difference between the two. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Maybe we are saying the same thing..but ground loops are because of different potentials at different ground points which cause current to flow in the ground. Theoretically there should be no current in the safety ground. Neutral is the return for the load current. Sorry I assume PCs with Iso Trans are not "relatively inexpensive". But admittedly I really don't know. I have never looked into it. I fix my noise problems at their source using science. Curious though when you have a "fault" on the load side of an iso trans where does the current go. Does it trip the breaker on the primary side? Or does the isolated side have GFI protection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Khorns Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 24 minutes ago, babadono said: Maybe we are saying the same thing..but ground loops are because of different potentials at different ground points which cause current to flow in the ground. Theoretically there should be no current in the safety ground. Neutral is the return for the load current. As I wrote the potential (voltage)between the ground and neutral must be zero or a current will flow somewhere in the system. For there to be a voltage difference between the two, equipment connected to the conductors also are connected in some way to another ground, and the two grounds are not connected directly together (there is a resistance between the two ground points). This sets up the ground loop. I'll say that we are saying the same thing. 24 minutes ago, babadono said: Sorry I assume PCs with Iso Trans are not "relatively inexpensive". But admittedly I really don't know. I have never looked into it. I fix my noise problems at their source using science. Curious though when you have a "fault" on the load side of an iso trans where does the current go. Does it trip the breaker on the primary side? Or does the isolated side have GFI protection? If wired correctly, if there is a fault on the load side of an iso transformer, it clears back to iso transformer through the ground wire. The iso is the new separately derived power source and is not the house or utility power source. It is now its own system with its own ground. All grounds need to connect back to the power source - the iso. Connecting the secondary side ground to the primary side ground not only defeats the purpose of the iso transformer, but you are potentially setting up a dangerous condition. Think of the iso transformer as the utility and everything connected on the load side would be analogous to your house electrical system. And as such you need load side circuit breakers to protect wire and equipment against overloads and short circuits. If you are concerned about personnel safety or arcing fires you can also install GFIC's and AFCI's on the load side. But I would be judicious about using these as you could be susceptible to nuisance trips, a real PITA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 19 minutes ago, Quad Khorns said: As I wrote the potential (voltage)between the ground and neutral must be zero or a current will flow somewhere in the system. For there to be a voltage difference between the two, equipment connected to the conductors also are connected in some way to another ground, and the two grounds are not connected directly together (there is a resistance between the two ground points). This sets up the ground loop. I'll say that we are saying the same thing. "Must be zero" but it will never be...this is common misconception. Neutral is bonded to ground at service entrance. And if no current is flowing in ground then at that point it is at the same potential. Now 50 feet down a piece of 14ga romex wire that has 15 amps flowing through it... no way is it at the same potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Khorns Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 I'm sure by now the OP has long nodded off and tuned out of this discussion. But back to the OP's original question of the power conditioner being worth it, I read a little about the Furman units on their website. They do not provide any technical details on what exactly their system is and does, and that in itself is telling. The most I can glean from their information is that these units provide some level of filtering and perhaps voltage regulation. They are concerned about RFI and EMI but how do they correct for it? No explanation. They offer units that do power factor correction, which is a power delivery efficiency issue, not an audio quality issue (fewer amps are needed to drive the load with power factor correction). I could get into another long technical discussion, but I'll try to avoid it. In a few words this sort of "power conditioning" is not worth the price tag and will not correct many of the real-world problems present in home power systems. Period. If you want RFI and EMI protection, install twisted pair power wires in metal clad shielding or conduit is the accepted method. And keep the wires away from motors, transformers, and strong magnets. The filtering is almost certainly filters for high frequency sources (such as digital sources), but ignores the most common noise on power lines which are 60 Hz and lower. These are corrected with isolation and shielding. And you also must not connect digital sources (your CD, DVD, streamer players etc.) on the load side of the power conditioner. As I discussed previously, if you need voltage regulation, you got bigger problems than your audio system. Do you share power with an industrial plant? Another high dollar, snake oil product IMHO. There are more cost and performance effective solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Khorns Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 19 minutes ago, babadono said: "Must be zero" but it will never be...this is common misconception. Neutral is bonded to ground at service entrance. And if no current is flowing in ground then at that point it is at the same potential. Now 50 feet down a piece of 14ga romex wire that has 15 amps flowing through it... no way is it at the same potential. Ok, this is what I get in trying to educate ...a wasted afternoon responding to nonsense. This reminds me why I didn't go into teaching. So why don't you explain what measuring the voltage difference between the neutral at the load, and the ground at the panel through 50 ft of Romex 14 carrying 15 amps has to do with generating a ground loop? That will be interesting ... Let me save you time - it has NOTHING to do creating a ground loop and that has nothing to do with the noise and ground loop discussion. Let me educate you more - That zero potential must be measured at the neutral and ground AT THE SAME POINT WHERE THE DEVICE CONNECTS TO THE POWER not the voltage difference of the neutral at the device and the ground 50 ft away! What are you thinking? With the neutral and ground bonded together at the panel, the voltage difference will be zero between the two at the same point equal distances from the bond point. Let me guess your next response - "but the voltage difference at the same point will still be different by 0.001 volt... See I'm right" Yea sport you are right... I know I know, you have to find some way to save face...so knock yourself out, but I I have better things to do. Oh BTW why don't you post your vast education and experience credentials that generate such great electrical engineering wisdom. Otherwise have a great day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave MacKay Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 3 hours ago, babadono said: On relatively inexpensive power conditioners it is probably illegal for them to isolate the safety ground connection. And it SHOULD NOT be done. If you have a noise problem figure out where and between which pieces of equipment and fix that interconnect/interface. https://indianaaes.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf review the document at this link..you will then know as much as the greatest minds on noise know. Very interesting document. Thanks for posting it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 38 minutes ago, Quad Khorns said: So why don't you explain what measuring the voltage difference between the neutral at the load, and the ground at the panel through 50 ft of Romex 14 carrying 15 amps has to do with generating a ground loop? Cuz the ground potential at different points will be different because of the current flowing in the neutral wire. The potential difference of different ground points has everything to do with creating loop currents. I seriously do not know or understand your response to my posts. I did not or do not mean anything aganist you. Whatever i have done I apologize. Life is too short. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 11 minutes ago, babadono said: I seriously do not know or understand your response to my posts. I did not or do not mean anything aganist you. Whatever i have done I apologize. Life is too short. @babadono Your right Life is to short and you have nothing to apologize for and IMHO you are always trying to share knowledge and help others on this forum. miketn🙂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 59 minutes ago, Dave MacKay said: Very interesting document. Thanks for posting it. Your welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 BTW formal education has nothing(or little) to do with the understanding of these subjects. To quote Calvin Coolidge "the world is full of educated derelicts". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcbiz Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 The fluctuating voltage in my apartment was pretty awful, but a voltage regulator really helped. Now it stays between 123 and 124 volts. The audio is much happier now. I'm using this regulator, built with recording studios in mind, but it works just fine in my system. https://www.blacklionaudio.com/store/power-conditioners/pg-2r-power-conditioner/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfman71 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 The best thing is to upgrade your Dac..to do that you will have to go over 10 grand or more..the streamer doesn’t do it…the best Dac for the money out there is the Playback Designs..MPD-8 there’s something wrong with Dacs that keep getting updates..otherwise they wouldn’t do it..…everything else you are considering is squirrel food for your brain..they want you to keep buying to feed the squirrel.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 Redo the entire setup! The power things unless it is truly and outside power problem, most folks don't need power conditioners except to have a fancy power strip. Looks good but, no Improvement in the real world. To get better sound, new amps, speakers and room Tx's. Anything less is playing in the sand at the park. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 On 6/11/2024 at 11:54 PM, RickD said: ....... Will the 20 amp dedicated circuit make a difference versus the 15amp shared circuit? Any thoughts? Rick If it makes any difference at all, it will be tiny and only because something on the shared circuit generated a *lot* of noise/transients. Since all of the neutrals and safety grounds are bonded together and half of the hots are bonded (connected) together, a dedicated circuit can't do much more than prevent a breaker trip when you start the vacuum cleaner. I had a dedicated 30 amp circuit pulled because I have 3 amps that can pull 1800 watts each, plus Pre/Pro, TV and sources. If your system could pull 2400 watts, a 20A circuit could be justified. Are your components so poorly made that they cannot filter out normal power line noise? Mine are not. Determine that answer before you invest money in snake oil. How old is the wiring in your house? Has it deteriorated? Why would your speaker cables deteriorate? Are they corroded? Have you measured an increase in resistance? Consider room treatments. Maybe your dealer can run some measurements and suggest improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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