Goodbye 5.1

[Daddy Dee]

This is posted with some hesitation because it is really just a confirmation that I'm a two channel guy. This 5.1 thing started after acquiring a sub to use with my La Scalas. Now, that part has been fun and it is definitely staying in the stable. The sub is a Cambridge Soundworks P1000, two 10" side firing drivers, motorized remote control, seperate control center, 1000 watt amp, equalizer control out the wazoo. I'm not going to make any claims for how it compares sonically to other subs... just two points: until I had it, didn't know what I was missing with the Scalas. Man do they ever sound good now. Second point: It is a heck of alot easier to dial in just right with the control center on the end table by the easy chair. Remote control is also cool from across the room, but it does volume only. The sub is well built, beautifully finished, solid. Have it set up to pick up where the Scalas roll off. It was the convenience of control that got my attention about this sub in the first place. And I'm really glad to NOT have to get down on my knees in the corner to adjust the rascal.

Well, enjoying the Scalas with sub so much, and having some Heresy's around for refurb projects, I thought well I'll just check out 5.1 with Heresy center and surrounds. Picked up an HK AVR-125Z reburbed from the factory website. (It happened to have one input channel out, but no problem, just sent the DVD signal through another pair of inputs... BTW it goes back to the factory this week for refund not exchange) This is a presentable little receiver. Listened to it awhile for two channel, more than adequate power for HT with Heritage, IMO.

Well, I'd been watching some movies with the two channel and sub and wondered if I was missing something by not having 5.1. Also thought my teenagers would think it was cool. Well, it was o.k. Maybe there were some reference DVD's I should have checked out, but the inconvenience of having to return the HK HT receiver and having to deal with the footprint of Heresy surrounds in the room (just a space and aesthetics thing in a room that has to do more than be a guy's space) tipped the scales away from 5.1.

Now, there is no offense intended to 5.1 (or better) HT fans. This is just about finding out what tickles my own fancy. It's two channel music with occasional movies. Heck, I don't even subscribe to HBO. One other observation, it doesn't take Heritage to make great HT. Well, still one more observation: everything you hear about the importance of a good center channel is true. It really carries the freight on a movie soundtrack. I thought the Heresy center did very well.

Best regards,

Dee

[kjohnsonhp]

I think it comes down to the type of movies you watch and how much value you put on surround sound and bass. I find I don't want to watch modern action movies like Star Wars, James Bond, Disney blockbusters like Treasure Planet, etc. any other way than with a sub and surround because I like surround (fly overs and surround sounds) and especially the bass. SVS says one of their subs is the best upgrade you can make to a HT and I certainly agree that a good sub presents an action movie in a totally different way. Even movies like Toy Story and Monsters, Inc. are transformed with killer bass.

Now on the other hand I found MOZART (the movie) delightful in 2-channel...maybe even preferred in 2-channel. ABOUT SCHMIDT could have been watched on my RPTV with just the built-in speakers. Certainly the older movies don't need all that surround sound/sub gear.

I also agree that HT can be a pain if trying to have one room for both, and if my Cornwalls have a low WAF then adding 3 or 4 more Heresys didn't help the situation.

I like both...I spend more time listening to 2-channel and watching non-action movies but just as I often get the "fever" for going out on "Saturday Night", I often get the fever for pyrotechnics and eye candy of a good HT action movie.

[Tubinhard]

I just go to the theater.

[burtlively]

i just e-mailed jolida praising 2ch home theater. when you have it set up right, the imaging is perfect without having 3,4,5, or even 6 more speakers. although i have a ht in the basement which i absouletly love, there is a lot to be said for QUALITY 2 ch ht. plus i have my rb-5ii's and the jolida atop the entertainment center (so my wife is happy), and the sub behind the chair (so my wife is happy). the sound is awesome (so i am happy). and the ONLY thing you see is the dvd player (so my wife is happy). when all these factors meet, my wife is happy which makes for peaceful living.

[ygmn]

THX movies are designed with multi speakers inmind as well as most new movies since the mid 90's.....I prefer them at home this way.,...

The great thing about HT is you can change it to just play 2 channel if you want.....but when you watch a movie put it in DTS or DOLBY DIGITAL and listen to those surrounds and makes a more pleasant movie experience....

IMO

[eq_shadimar]

Dee -

I am glad that you gave it a try. Not everyone has the money or space for a 5.1 system. I certainly understand the space issues. I love my surround system but I think a great 2 channel system can provide awesome moive enjoyment as well. Recently I have been testing front projectors for a dedicated theater room. I have been hooking up the projectors to one of my notebooks and using a set of Boston Acoustic amplified computer speakers. The set consists of a tiny sub and 2 satellites. Much to my suprise these little suckers perform really well for movies. Sure the impact and chest crushing bass are not there but the movies are still quite enjoyable. Not bad for a little test setup!

Enjoy what you like I say more power to ya!

Laters,

[Mallette]

DaddyDee, I certainly understand your situation. Once I passed 50 and developed Type 1 Diabetes, I suddenly didn't feel immortal anymore, started taking church more seriously, and just about dropped out of "entertainment." There are perhaps 1 in a 1000 movies I will watch, and they must MOVE me or I walk away. I watch a few TV shows with my wife, who is younger, still immortal, and so busy with her MBA program and full time job that if I didn't I miss about half my time with her.

OTOH, the problem with surround is with the material. I find center channels useless in music. I've no use or need for a sub or "bass management" because my 'horns do just fine, thank you very much. However, I refer to 2 channel as "dual mono." It's flat as a pancake. It can be awesome, but it can never be real as the real world is 3 dimensional, not two. I've used passive ambience recovery on my large 2 channel collection for 25 years, and still say that is pure in that I am not processing or synthesizing anything, but just recovering otherwise lost info and sending it where it should go. In mine own humble opinion, you're only playing part of the record without it.

As to real stereo, I'm confirmed in 4 speakers being optimum at the moment. My location recordings are now all 4 channel even for forward only sources. The building is still there, and without capturing the whole space reality just doesn't happen. Of course, I can still issue the fronts on CD and such, but I much prefer to immerse myself in a real sonic image of a space and moment in time than just a flat picture.

Back to the material...a few folks like SurroundedbyEntertainment and AIX are issueing 4 channel high res discs that are highly regarded. Others will follow.

Dave

[jt1stcav]

Never owned a HT system! When I had a full-blown audio system (started with my Magnepan/Carver system, then to Klipsch/McIntosh...see my thread on Odds & Mods), all I had was a mono 20" JVC color TV and an old Sony Hi-Fi VCR, and that was good enough for me. Since my younger brothers live with me in our parent's old house, they have their own state-of-the-art 6.1 HT rigs with all the latest DD/DTS technology and their SACD/DVD-A/DVD/CD players, so I no longer even use my old TV and VCR...their HT systems are spectacular, and our latest movie DVDs sound awesome on them; they're very enjoyable to watch!

But I'm a two-channel audio guy (always have been, and always will be), and I love listening to music played through my simple system. My Cornwalls could probably benefit from a sub, but since not owning one anymore, I really don't miss not having it. Multichannel SACD/DVD-A recordings are very interesting to say the least, but I still enjoy my stereo recordings. When I watched Dolby-encoded VHS tapes, I was totally satisfied and enjoyed watching them without the benefits of Dolby surround processing. If I still had my TV and VCR connected to my audio-only system, I'd still enjoy watching tapes through my stereo, and could live very well without surround effects!

[Daddy Dee]

Guys, thanks for the take and encouragement.

Dave, you have some interesting observations on mortality that I've been thinking about, too. It is amazing how much difference that makes in terms of unwillingness to vegetate in front of the TV. Of course, vegetating in front of the 2 channel is different!

Ambience recovery is a new one on me. You've been listening to that for 25 years? I'd sure like to hear more about that.That's interesting stuff. I'll do some looking around for info on that. If there's a place to point me toward, let me know.

Thanks and best regards.

Dee

[whell]

For what its worth, I enjoy my 5.1 system, but could live without it if I had to. I could not live without a 2 channel rig. With only one room to build a high quality system in, I decided on a 5.1 system that also allowed me to get good results with 2 channel. While the system is still a work in progress, I do enjoy movies on the weekends, and good music in between.

The RF7's sound fine w/o the sub, but I do find that my sub adds the extra oomf when desired. However, I still can't get comfortable with multi channel music. It still has yet to sound "right" to me. I've got several DTS recordings, and with few exceptions, they sound terrible. The DTS version of Eric Clapton's "Repile" disc just left me wanting to turn it off.

So, 2 channel for music, in my estimation, is still the way to go. 2 channel for movies I could probably live just fine with if I had to.

[Mallette]

Ambience recovery is what started the whole thing. Hafler pioneered it with his simple connection of rear speakers out of phase. This allowed emphasis and recovery to the out of phase material present on all multi-channel recordings. This circuit is available on line, I forget where. His DynaQuad unit was a 20.00 box that added null balance, rear level, front only conveniences. These can be had regularly on Ebay for at or near the orginal price, perhaps the biggest bargain in audio.

For a time, DynaQuad competed in the 4 channel wars of the the 70's, but more "sophisticated" stuff got the attention. The effect varies from downright startling on material with lots of out of phase material to subtle on simple two mic stuff, but it always adds forward dimension and extra depth.

A modern version is available through the heirs to Dynaco that handles more power (unnecessary with Heritage) but it is about 80.00 and lacks the null balance feature. OTOH, it has a center channel (passive, of course) if you need one.

As far as I am concerned, it is still a two channel device. Only two channels of amplification are used and the material comes from two channels. I have a copy of the orginal DynaQuad demo disc which can sound downright discrete.

Anyway, I've been using one since about 1975 and consider 2 speakers to be flat and 2 dimensional...though it can sound very nice just like a great mono system.

As to veging, I consider listening to music to be a completely regenerating experience that probably extends life. I don't think it is possible to do it too much.

Dave

[Aggie Klipsch]

I remember back in high school in 74 I read and article about car stereo in popular science that used the center dash speaker connected by both + leads from the left and right speakers to provide center ambience. Tried this on my 69 Bug with an underdash Pioneer Supertuner1 cassette deck and had pretty good results. Have not tried this with home equipment but may give it a try. I really miss that bug.

[ironwoods]

I too, have experimented with the ambience recovery method, when the 1st surround systems were becoming popular. It worked well to my ears. Then the 5.1 bug bit and I bit back. Now looking back, I think it(AR) served pretty well with my Hi-Fi stereo VCR, for a lot less dinero's. In fact, at times I hear strange things going on with the DSP modes that distract me from the movie. Like it gets confused and sends the wrong or partial signal to the wrong speaker at the wrong volume!

LFE is another letdown to me. I been in a brawl or 2(not proud), and a knuckle sandwich never shook the room. It seems a lot of movies have this exaggerated bass that is unreal. Sometimes I just shut the sub off and watch without it.

I won't be selling the 5.1 stuff just yet, it still performs well with 2 channel material, but I *hear* where your comming from.

[Daddy Dee]

Thanks Dave and Ironwoods. I'll need to check that out. Hafler, hmmmm. smart guy, he was.

Would it require two matched pairs? or would it work o.k. with scala fronts & heresy rears?

Dee

p.s. Dave, you have got it so right on vegeing out!

[Mallette]

As with all things audio, better matches means more seamless sound. However, Heresies should work fine. I use Frazier Super Monte Carlos in the rear and only have to watch high volumes to insure not over driving them. I just finished sealing a nearly 270 degree surround tear in one of my oldest pairs. Seems to sound fine.

I'd be interested in your comments if you obtain and try a DynaQuad. I consider it a "purist" component, though seems most folks here in the conservative camp figure anything over two speakers is Heresy (as it were). I suppose they wonder what I am doing here. Like my politics, my audio preferences are pretty lonely. No other forum comes close.

Dave

[mobile homeless]

Dave says, "Anyway, I've been using one since about 1975 and consider 2 speakers to be flat and 2 dimensional...though it can sound very nice just like a great mono system

Well Dave, I cant say this with any more assurance but I now believe we literally have such completely different systems in this aspect that I wonder what it going on in your system. While I dont hear sounds coming from behind me (I still dont find this natural in live music), either of my systems is anything but two dimensional. I have imaging coming from behind the speakers, out past the edges, and some in front, with good capture of the feeling of the room in a live recording, this depending on the recording and source. Sometimes I read the descriptions here and wonder just how different these various setups can be.

The only systems I have heard from other forum users are Jeff Lessard's (Painful Reality) and Tad W's (Are Friends Electric) both using SET amps. Jeff's speakers are RL Acoustique Lamhorns and Tad's are 76 Cornwalls (JFL Monos and Wright 2A3 respectively). Both of those systems also performed VERY well in this regard with Jeff's Lamhorn/300B Monos taking the cake in the dimension sweepstakes between those two.

I have not heard any kind of device that mimics space to sound transparent or real enough and have yet to find a need for any of the multichannel solutions as 2 Channel is sounding so damn good and anything but two dimensional.

I still think a properly setup 2 channel can really do well here if not create a more see-thru illusion.

kh

[Mallette]

No three dimensional space can be accurately reproduced from a two dimensional source, though SRS and similar electronic wizardry tries. While there is a since of width and spacing in a first rate two speaker system, the fact that all the information present is not being reproduced insures that accurate recreation cannot happen. I don't even see the argument there. If you put a large piece of Sonex behind you standing in a cathedral, your since of space would certainly change. When you listen to such a space in a two speaker setup, the reflections that SHOULD be coming from the rear are coming from the front. That is NOT high fidelity in any since of the word.

I don't want to get kicked out of the 2 channel forum for heresy or whatever. Ambience recovery is simply using 100% of the material available from a 2 channel source, not some sort of plot against purism. I've yet to hear a DSP device or other later day process that does the job without artifacts or some degree of artificial sounding result. Nature works just fine, thank you very much.

Dave

[Marvel]

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On 9/17/2003 7:56:24 AM Mallett wrote:

If you put a large piece of Sonex behind you standing in a cathedral, your since of space would certainly change. When you listen to such a space in a two speaker setup, the reflections that SHOULD be coming from the rear are coming from the front.

Dave

----------------

I've been in NEW churches that sound like they did put Sonex behind you. They are aweful!

Now they put carpet everywhere and have to use a moster PA sytem to even get you to hear anything.

Marvel

[lovemyhorns]

I tried the HT also and didn;t care for it(although I didnlt use a subwoofer). Maybe if I had a totally seperate room dedicated for theatre only, but aestetics, etc... just didn;t seem right in my living room, I guess 2 massive k-horns are enough. + I couldn;t spend the big bucks for a really quality HT receiver and the one I got did movies real well, but it sucked on 2 ch as compared to a decent 2 ch. system, just my opinion on that.

Needless to say, currently I am happier playing movies on my 2 ch system than dealing with the HT system I had.

[j-malotky]

Reading this thread for the first time and I can see why many of you are disappointed with HT systems. I too would rather listen to a movie over a great 2CH system over a cheap HT system. I did it for years also before I made my Heritage HT last year.

For HT as like 2 CH you get what you pay for. You run your Khorns off of a 2CH receiver it sounds like crap. Your run your HT off an all in one HT receiver it too sounds like crap. You need a great processor and amps to make a great HT. You also need to put the effort into creating a proper listening room to get the best imaging effects, just like 2CH.

If any of you are ever traveling through the Milwaukee WI area and want to hear a proper heritage HT, email me.

Once you have a nice HT setup that is properly setup, going to the movies at the theater is a let down.

JM