Is my room too small for Klipschorns?

[wrench_peddler]

Dean,

The sweet spot on KHorns is going to be about 1/2 the width backd from the front wall. If you turn your chair to the left and put it about where the table with the candle is at, put the right horn in the corner where the left speaker is at now, and build a short wall to the left and behind where you chair is now, with the horns about 16 feet apart, you would be set. The listening room would then be 16 wide and 12 deep with your chair about 8-9 feet off the front wall and 2-3 off the back wall. Some padding on the wall behind the chair and you could close your eyes and be front and center of the recording.

[garymd]

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On 12/13/2003 10:35:39 PM mobile homeless wrote:

This is another forum member's room that is getting VERY good sound too with high quality amplification. I will let him chime in if he feels like it. His room has some compromises but he expressed the doability. We discussed this in relation to my room, which would have different problems. The fact that you would still have open air BEHIND you is a major GOOD point in my view.

Ultimately, why are you going with the upstairs instead of the basement? Perhaps the forum member will weigh in here.

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I know this room well and the khorns sound great.

Dean,

I think you'd be suprised. You weren't worried about a sweet spot anyway, right? You probably won't really have one anyway in that room with khorns but you can enjoy the entire room as one big sweet spot.

[Deang]

Wrench,

Yes. That is what Kevin is thinking, and would mimic Randy Bey's set up. This is looking better all the time.

Don mentioned my knee walls not being 52" tall. Actually they are much taller. The RF-7 is not small speaker, being 45" tall. The Klipschorn is only 7" taller. Imagine two RF-7's, side by side -- and you have what is basically the size of a Klipschorn. Just add a half a foot on top.

Gary, yeah, I'm just going flop down on the bed drown myself in sound. I don't need no stinkin chair.

[mobile homeless]

Dean, I have written the forum member to see if he might weigh in here. I still think the Khorn the best option but obviously the room will present some compromises. Moving to LR will be good down the road. I find the Khorns would actually take up less space, fitting into the corners.

The above owner reports no need for a real sweet spot sitting location in this setup with good imaging. Another forum member here has heard this setup many a time with good reports. I leave it up to the owner to chime in here.

kh

[Q-Man]

Dean,

Give it up! You have heard Paul's Klipschorns and your never going to get that sound out of your head. That's what Klipschorns do to you. Your music listening days are ruined, you will never be happy untill you own a pair.

You can live with them in that room for now. Then your dreams or goals will lead you to build a room or house for them someday. These little goals keep us young and give us something to look forward to. At least you will be able to enjoy them now. You have seen a lot of Forum members get their first pair of Klipschorns durning the last three years, and only a couple of them have decent rooms. Yet you don't hear any of them complaining.

A new pair would be great, but I still wouldn't rule out a used pair.

[ssh]

No, you're room is not too small. Q-Man, are you getting speakers just for that room, or are you getting speakers that you will use in that room? Most Khorn users have had "better" & "worse" rooms, but the Khorns are a constant. I love my LaS, but they are not as inspiring as my Khorns. I listen to SET, PP, & SS almost daily in a room about 14' wide. Whether another width wall will be an improvement is no issue to me until I take the option of placing them at the corners of the long (19') wall. In either case, I have the option of placing Khorns there. If you think you'll die listening to music in that one room, & you're convinced that you don't have wall space for the Khorn, then get the LaS.

SSH

[neo33]

Dean, I don't think you have enough clearance for Khorns. I don't particularly like room with angled ceiling. I would do La Scalas if I were you. By the way, my living room is about 13x18x10 with perfect corners and I will do La Scalas. Anyone think that room size is good for Khorns?

[J M O N]

Dean:

I have my Khorns in a room that is 12x18. They are on the long wall, however. Having them on the short wall doesn't seem like it would work well, but I have never actually tried it, so you never know. If others have been successful with that type of setup, it could work for you. Since you are open to false corners, you might want to consider using the long wall with two false corners. This will allow you to point the Khorns wherever you need them to go. That is something that can't be done when they are restricted to corner placement. I have a feeling using false corners on the short wall will end up spaning almost the entire width of the room as false corners will need to be fairly wide (I would guess over four feet). Maybe someone with false corners can let you know how wide they are.

[NOSValves]

Dean,

Qman brings up a very valid point. What does your future hold in the way of an addition to your existing house or a move to another home? I think you need to put some serious thought into this youre buying these speakers new and will have a hard time getting your money back out of them if they do not float your boat. But if you see an addition or a move in your not so distant future then the compromise will be worth it in the long run. If a move or addition is not likely I still say Lascalas all the way.

Craig<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[marksdad]

ok dean, my 2cents.... i have mine seperated at almost the same as yours would be, center to center about 14 feet. i was reluctant at first because of all the nay sayers, but jim cornell needed cash, so i crossed my fingers and hoped against hope, and oh my, do they sound good, no great!!!!! they just are so much more speaker than the lascala, nos is right, but!, but! amplification has alot to do with this, my b&k has so much head room that the soundstage is really large, it just seems that everywhere in my listening room is a sweet spot, or maybe it is just because i am so pleased with the heritage sound? but everything i throw at them sounds wonderfull. plus i see by your picture that the wall you would be using is pretty devoid of reflecting surfaces, so you would have pretty good bass extension. toe in? i dont think so, as soon as you pull them off the wall at any angle you start muddying up the bass extension, and the khorn extension is truly marvelous, do it dean, you will be very happy, less than perfect? perhaps, but a far way better than lascallas

[LarryC]

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On 12/13/2003 11:15:27 PM mobile homeless wrote:

Dean, I have written the forum member to see if he might weigh in here. I still think the Khorn the best option but obviously the room will present some compromises. Moving to LR will be good down the road. I find the Khorns would actually take up less space, fitting into the corners.

The above owner reports no need for a real sweet spot sitting location in this setup with good imaging. Another forum member here has heard this setup many a time with good reports. I leave it up to the owner to chime in here.

kh

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Dean,

This is my setup. I don't have a separate listening room, so I put 'em in the living room, which I've always done anyway. One issue for you may be where the equipment goes; mine is in the adjoining room to the left, and the cabling goes through the baseboard behind the left speaker. The only equipment in this room besides the speakers is the amplifier (a Joule-Electra tube OTL) which you can see behind the TV (now in a TV cabinet).

(Edit: pic below added, apologies to those tired of seeing it!)

Clearly I wanted acceptable decor in my 11' X 18' living room, and false corners are completely out of the question. The Khorns are across the short wall, and I find the sound to be very fine. I also am not much into sweet spots, do not think that listening to this setup demands finding one, and have found find that people can enjoy them sitting in a variety of places in the room, although the far end is preferable for most. While I cannot locate my speakers in either of the other two corners anyway (stairwell and short alcove wall), I think they could be too far apart for most listeners, if placed along the long wall.

The setup has clear compromises. That glass panel door undoubtedly loses bass, and I only partly dealt with it by putting a plywood panel over the part coverd by the bass bin -- decor rules! However, note also the door's vertical molding behind the horn! Another plywood panel fills that in to complete a solid corner.

I was thinking that if you put the one next to a window like Lynnm's, it just might be best to create a single wall panel spaced out enough to clear the molding and baseboard, maybe routed out for the window sill if still a problem.

The window on the right is probably a weakness, but fortunately the speaker just clears the molding. (I DID have to cut the side grill frame under the grill cloth to clear the sill.)

So --- the problems with my setup are, room too small (1930's small-room Cape Cod), big furniture too close, glass panels too close, and possible bass effects of a transient 1962-era factory mod in the bass horn. The benefits, though, are great -- that fine, seamless, big, open sound from the top all the way down to the bass, and outstanding sound throughout the room and into other rooms too. These are natural mahogany, BTW.

[ironwoods]

I think the room is too small for Heresy's. Khorns are exellent speakers for a larger room. If this is an investment, why not wait on the Khorns and invest in a larger room (6k). Kind of like buying tires before the car.

[mobile homeless]

I was hoping Larry would chime in here. Gary was also commenting on Larry's system and evidently makes the jaunt to hear this setup every so often (please see his post at end of pg 1)

One quick note, Larry has one of the more esoteric amps owned by anyone in the forum with his Joule-Electra VZN-100 Mk.III OTL Monoblocks (OTL means no output transformers). I thought some would like to see a pic of his custom amps, each with a dedicated custom VARIAC! The output tube is the daddy 6C33, the same tube used in the Tenor Audio OTL (and the STARGATE MONOBLOCKS by J-E).

Another note, this amp is pretty LARGE. You dont get a sense of the size at over a foot wide and 18 inches deep with the base being over 9" tall.

For a larger view of Larry's monoblock, see below:

Full shot of Larry's Joule-Electra

kh

[garymd]

They look better in person actually. Once a week Larry and I get together and listen to classical music. Actually, he's teaching me. We go through a piece with the score in front of us which he has before hand explained to me in great detail. He's incredibly knowledgable and has been kind enough to take me under his wing, so to speak. Sometimes we listen to different music or set up a TT, etc. but one thing remains the same, his khorns sound wonderful.

Dean,

Your room is bigger than Larry's. Just do it!

[Randy Bey]

Hey, I think there are a couple of things you need to consider with khorns.

First, you need to be a goodly distance from them to allow the horns individual sounds to blend. Nine feet or so seems to do the trick. Make your listening position at the epicenter of the two horns, so they beam right at ya.

Second, you want as little reflection from the rear as possible. Not a khorn issue, but speakers in general I think. Either treat the rear wall or have a goodly amount of space between you and it.

Third, you want enough room in the ... uh, room, for the bass waves to propogate. Twenty or thirty feet is good. Mine is a tad short on that but I get acceptable results.

I use the Jon Risch room treatments. They are located exactly where the horns "beam" which I determined by putting a flashlight on top of the khorn aimed straight out to locate the spot on the wall where they hit. The bass trap has been dissed by others here but is easily moveable and I for one hear a difference in bass with its presence; it actually reduces the bass audibly. Your big bass guitar lines go from a bluuuuuuuuub bluuuuuuuub sound to bap bap. Reduces the muddiness. All these treatments took me only a weekend to make and less than $100 in materials. Except for an ugly incident with the liquid nails and the fibreglass insulation it was uneventful.

For Xmas I am giving my wife the digital camera that I've always wanted. After that I will be able to take better pictures of everything that may help show this setup off. Of course, the room is butt ugly but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Deang]

To me, the problem is ever so simple. If I don't do it -- I know I will regret it.

[NOSValves]

Well Dean I think you have solved you own problem with this last post .....So just do it. I'm sure it will sound great but will be very different from what you heard at Paul's house which is what led you down this road.

Craig

[Deang]

Of course it will sound different, but I'm fully expecting it to sound great. My room covers the whole 2nd floor, and I think it'll work out fine.

Doing all of measurements showed me the Klipschorns don't really take up much more room than the LaScala. They are basically the same width across the front, and to the back. With false walls, they take up the same amount of floor space.

[Soundthought]

I hear that, Dean.

It's worth it just for the experience, alone.

Though, I'm not sure "new" is the smartest route.

I think you would have more fun and save a ton of cash by getting a used set and rebuilding them yourself.

Plus, you could focus on getting a pre-'60 set with 6" slots and K5J composite horns.

Boom Boom Honk Honk.

Oh....and Khorns are as wide as 3 RF7s.

BTW..They don't look very good sitting next to Khorns.

Kinda like parking a Ferrari next to a '68 Yenko Camaro.

Regards,

John.

PS. Have you ever listened to the original Fortes'?

IMHO. Your room is ideal for them and I believe you would get the sound your searching for.

[NOSValves]

With false walls, they take up the same amount of floor space.

Say what ??? no way. With Lascalas in the corners I have enough room between them for a 8' work bench. I have no Idea where your getting this Idea with false corner the Khorns wouldn't be way larger were talking 5' wide and the same depth as the Lascalas maybe deaper. The Lascalas are a full 3' narrower.

Craig