khorn vs La Scala

[maxg]

I was having a very similar conversation with a friend the other night. More specifically we were discussing why KHorns work so well here whilst LaScala's generally dont seem to play well.

Our latest theory is that the Khorn derives massive benefit from its being taller - with all the drivers being correspondingly further from the concrete/marble or other solid floors.

This would also serve to explain why my Heresies sounded so much better than LaScala's when we did a side by side comparison - the Heresy's were mounted on stands.

Our plan - when the opportunity presents itself - is to try mounting the LaScala's on a base (we'll have to try various materials and degrees of solidity). A neighbour has LaScala's - all we have to do now is to persuade him it is worth playing with...

[rtaylor]

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On 12/18/2003 3:58:16 AM maxg wrote:

I was having a very similar conversation with a friend the other night. More specifically we were discussing why KHorns work so well here whilst LaScala's generally dont seem to play well.

Our latest theory is that the Khorn derives massive benefit from its being taller - with all the drivers being correspondingly further from the concrete/marble or other solid floors.

This would also serve to explain why my Heresies sounded so much better than LaScala's when we did a side by side comparison - the Heresy's were mounted on stands.

Our plan - when the opportunity presents itself - is to try mounting the LaScala's on a base (we'll have to try various materials and degrees of solidity). A neighbour has LaScala's - all we have to do now is to persuade him it is worth playing with...

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In my experience with lascalas and khorns the las's worked best for my room. Trust me. After building the damn things and being so proud of the looks they just would not sound worth a darn in here. Ended up without klipschs for several years b/4 finally getting another pair of las's.

The small wall is 11 feet wide and the sitting position puts you 14 feet back from the front face of the speakers. When time allows I'm going to try the bass extension on the bottom of the lascalas.

Really wanted the k's to work, we made two sets, my friend Jim is using his and wouldn't trade them for anything and Scott who has mind loves his. Oh well, maybe if I knew more about parameters and such I could have made them work.

Randy

[dodger]

If you take the LaScala outside, using it as a P.A. speaker their throw is very good, BUT the K-Horn as I said properly set up and sealed will outdo the LaScala unless you have blown drivers or you wish to keep your head inside the bass box.

Properly set up the definition is very good on bass, listen to an upright, an organ, or bass guitar it will take 30 seconds to notice a difference.

That's part of why I sold my 2 pair of LaScalas.

Win

[Daddy Dee]

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On 12/17/2003 7:50:12 PM rf3iicrazy wrote:

"I'd say the diff between KH and LS is as great is the diff between LS and Heresy."

Tom,

That's a very bold statement, raises my level of curiosity!

Tom----------------

Yep, that is a bold statement.

(BTW this is an interesting thread to read how folks articulate the difference in sound between Khorns and LS)

My first reaction to the statement is that it is something of an overstatement. However, after reflecting on it, think it is a statement that is reasonable and defensible. In terms of the 80/20 principle so often found true in relationships, it might be said that a Heresy will deliver 80% of what LaScala delivers. La Scala delivers 80% or more of what Khorn delivers. The accuracy of these numbers is not a hill I'd want to die on, but am just thinking aloud (on the keyboard).

On the LS doing so well as a PA speaker outside... that was it's original purpose as PWK designed it for use in Winthrop Rockefeller's campaign for govenor in Arkansas. There was a pic of an early LS posted on the forum recently. It looks quite odd with the doghouse in a horizontal position. I haven't yet satisfied my curiosity by looking in newspaper archives to see if any of these appeared in print.

The "airy" quality of the whole range of sound is the stunning surprise. With the bass horn loading the whole room, that would be expected in the bottom end. There is still something that "seems" to enhance the quality of the mid and top end as well. That is harder to imagine since the drivers, horn lenses, and xover are identical between KH and LS. Others have discussed the height of the horns on the cab and that makes sense. I also imagine that having the horns snugged up in the corners could have more impact one would think. The square back of LS would prevent moving the horn as close into the corner as the "V" back of the KH. That said, in matters of perception, there are some things for which effect seems unnacountable. For example, some years ago when the first few high end cars were equipped with the bright LED center brake lights, I was impressed at their brightness. In reading articles about them, one thing that engineers expressed is that the LED's only "appear" to be brighter. Go figure! I just thought if they looked brighter, they were brighter. That the mid and high end sounds more airy in KH than LS, I guess that's just part of the magic.

This morning I've been listening to Liz Story piano solos and the space sounds like she is sitting in the LR playing right there.

I wouldn't be surprised if I end up selling my 2A3 gear and driving them with my HF-81.

[sheltie dave]

In talking to Craig, he noted that the base on the Scalas was much more present and "in your face", which is to be expected. Scalas have a very defined and coherent geometric enclosure the sound emenates from, while the base information from the Khorns will be more diffuse and present as a whole sonic palette.

In listening tests, friends who play in rock bands like the Scalas more, while jazz and classical musicians DROOL over the Khorns. My listening area is 27' wide by 16' deep with one decent corner and one 1 ft deep wall kickout, so it's not an ideal Khorn setup, and they still sound frickin' gorgeous.

The Scalas are a world better than the Heresys, and the Heresys are much, much better than the JBLs and Ohm C2s with which I started my stereo wars. Scalas will not shortchange you in any aspect - the concepts Paul worked with in the fourties are well incorporated in this design. The Khorns just have the advantage in that their size and voicing in a well designed corner setting are getting very close to a no compromise situation.

[Tom Mobley]

DaddyDee,

"In terms of the 80/20 principle so often found true in relationships, it might be said that a Heresy will deliver 80% of what LaScala delivers. La Scala delivers 80% or more of what Khorn delivers. The accuracy of these numbers is not a hill I'd want to die on, but am just thinking aloud (on the keyboard)."

perzackly. the exact number is unimportant, it's the concept that's dead on.

Tom

[NOSValves]

I would attribute much of the change that people perceive in the sound of the Mids and tweeters of the Khorns is more of a placement and height difference issue of the 2 speakers. In almost all cases with people I have talked to they have there Lascalas setup so the horns are blowing directly at them and near that spot with Khorns this is rarely the case which will have a huge effect on the presentation. When I was at my local friends house that bought Khorns this year they were setup about 13' apart and my favorite sweet spot was only 5' off the systems wall when seated in this exact position the Khorns sounded almost exactly like my Lascalas. I have mine Lascalas tilted upward by 2" to bring the sweet spot right at my ears! I would think that with the placement freedom of the Lascalas any testing is skewed comparing the actual attributes of the 2 speakers. You really would have to put the Lascalas in the corner with the very same angle as the Khorn. Tilting them up so the fire higher in the room. I bet this would produce a sound very similar to the Khorn except the lower regions.

Craig <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[Flason]

I think one of the factors that I hear a huge difference between my Khorns and Las is due to the different crossovers in each speaker. I have A's in the Khorns and AA in the Las. With the AA's the mids seemed more forward but the A's have a more laid back feel.

[mobile homeless]

Danny, I didnt think ole Ed would even consider selling his Klipschorns. I know if he did, they wouldnt go for cheap. His are beautiful however, perhaps some of the nicest samples in this forum. BTW, where do you live again?

Tom, I DID get the info on the transformsers and bookmarked the site as well as marked your mail for response. Thanks for the info. As for the Khorns, it's not as much a large issue really, in as much as my listennig position would be quite close relatively speaking at about 9-10 feet from the horns. And the wall would be RIGHT behind my head perhas by about a foot. This is one of the worries I have about them. Dean is lucky in that he has open space behind him, something I think might be crucial.

I still plan on giving it a go, however.

kh

[Dale W]

I agree with craig on the height issue, i use to have my lascalas sitting ontop of huge old endtables. Getting that bass bin firing right at your head makes a lot of difference.

I also agree on the tight snappy bass from the lascala, sure the k's go lower but in my opinion the scalas have a crisper tighter control over the bass.

Needless so say i'm not getting rid of either pair any time soon, in fact i'm on the hunt for some corns to use as side channels in my HT set up.

[Benesesso]

While I've listened to my Khorns for many years, I've only heard one pair of LaS's, but the difference on bass was like night and day. I simply could not live with LaS's without a subwoofer-the pair I heard, along a wall, simply would not get down to what *I* consider bass-anything below ~50 Hz. But LaS's with a good sub would probably be great.

I also converted my AA's to A's and would never return to the muted tweeters of the AA's. I'd rather buy a bunch of spare tweeters should the need ever arise (unlikely, I think). Can't wait to assemble 2 DHAXOVERS-Ver.2's and try them-and the 1 mF cap mod. to the AA's.

Also, not having any rope caulk handy I tried deadening the mid-horn with some big bags of silica gel I had. Not as good a treatment as the rope, I'm sure, but I can't hear any diff. so far.

[ben.]

Kelly-

My setup is about what you describe. I have no complaints, but then again have only just begun to get really at home with them. If by chance you are up this way, you would be welcome to bring some amplification and give them a listen. It is a fairly live room, but certainly not a problem. As a matter of fact, the back wall is completely bare at this time, awaiting expensive photo processing concerns.

'Twould benefit both of us, perhaps.

[greg928gts]

This thread contains some very accurate descriptions of the differences between the Khorn and the LS's.

But I don't think enough has been said about the importance of the room for Khorns. Over the years I've heard a few people complain about Khorns and I always know if it's not an actual problem with their speaker, it's a room issue. I know I have issues with my own listening room.

Khorns, more than any other Klipsch Heritage speaker, need a proper room to get the maximum output, range, and imaging from them. LS's are much more flexible when it comes to the room and placement.

I echo the statements about the size of the sound from Khorns and how they surround you with sound. They are a much more involving speaker than the LS's. After listening to Cornwalls or LS's and then listening to the Khorns, the impression is that the soundstage is twice as big.

Greg

[IB Slammin]

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On 12/17/2003 11:16:58 PM smilin wrote:

Thanks Guys,

Great thoughts, I'll have to try them after I get the cornwall's out of my system.

Smilin for U

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If you have CWs and you like what you hear....do not buy Las...buy two more Cornwalls.......Great projection in an auditorium, if you have an auditorium....very clean....but.very shallow bass, if you like that....very clean, must be great as HT surrounds.....BUT I would never considder them for 2 or 3 channel systems......very clean and very upper bass.....absolutly no CW slam...Loud and clean.....But.........not designed for flanking channels......

tc