3dzapper Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Serious listening: LOUD ROCK & ROLL!!!!!!!!!!! YMMV! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 ---------------- On 1/25/2004 10:18:59 AM DeanG wrote: Serious listening can be had two ways: 1) The music is translated with feeling, to the feelings. 2) You feel the music, and become one with it. ---------------- Few days ago ,I was listening to some organ music with a 1.5 watt amp and it was sounding so real. Guess you can't call it serious enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 You simply are not noticing the compression and clipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 ---------------- On 1/25/2004 11:48:57 AM paulparrot wrote: You simply are not noticing the compression and clipping. ---------------- Yeah, I'm deaf like you're not trying to provoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 I hope that's not what you think my post is about. It's more like tough love. Unless you have a MAGICAL system, the laws of physics cannot be overruled. You may indeed be hearing a lifelike tone and be responding to that, and that is great. But lifelike tone isn't everything, you also need to have power in the low end. If you really think you can realistically reproduce a 32-foot long pipe of an organ on your non-Klipsch speakers with a 1.5 watt amp, I can either tell you that that is ridiculous or I can tell you how wonderful it is that you can do that. It's polite to humor people, but it is a disservice to those who are reading these pages for advice. Klipsch recommends 20 watts minimum for all their Heritage speakers. No exceptions for magical amplifiers on magical non-Klipsch speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Paul, I understand what you're saying and I agree with you much of the time but you also have to remember that Guy's speakers (altecs) are probably every bit as efficient as most klipsch heritage. I believe he used to own khorns also so he's a horn lover through and through. 1.5 watts would never be in my house but to some it does the trick and can sound very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 I have no problem believing organ can sound "real" with less than two watts on efficient speakers -- in fact, it can be done quite easily without clipping the amp. You just aren't going to shake the floors with it. I kind of wish you would chill out with this Paul. I mean, who cares if someone buys a SET or low powered amp? If they don't like it they can sell it and get something else. At any rate, it's gotten to the point where 99% of your posts are like the one above. Hell, I know what you're going to say before I read it. You once said that Kelly's 5000 posts could be reduced to 10 posts and then simply repeated. I would hate to think yours could all be reduced to one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 ---------------- On 1/25/2004 12:41:01 PM garymd wrote: Paul, I understand what you're saying and I agree with you much of the time but you also have to remember that Guy's speakers (altecs) are probably every bit as efficient as most klipsch heritage. I believe he used to own khorns also so he's a horn lover through and through. 1.5 watts would never be in my house but to some it does the trick and can sound very good. ---------------- Hi Gary, I wasn't meaning that the Altecs aren't efficient. Just wanted to point out that he doesn't even like Klipsch speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 I listened to 2A3 yesterday play some bass CD at levels moderate enough for most listeners. In a family room about 15'X 20' with a 9, 10 foot ceiling. Only one side, one 2A3 used on a breadboard. (6EA7 driver with a James universal OPT.) A Whiteley Stentorian HF1016 10" full-range used as a woofer, in a four foot cabinet ported to 30 Hz. EV 1823's with some sort of horns, and JBL tweeters (075's?) With a vintage Wharfedale 3-way passive crossover network. Line-out from Denon CD player. Klipsch may require 20 watts minimum, but this set-up was doing real well with a watt. I only heard clipping when it was pushed too hard, it didn't need to be pushed anyway. Maybe my hearing is shot, but I know what heard. Other's can just speculate. I think a Pentode connected SE KT-88 with some feedback could do pretty well SPL-wise with Klipsch. 15 to 20 watt wherabouts or so. But I'm speculating now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 ---------------- On 1/25/2004 12:52:20 PM DeanG wrote: I have no problem believing organ can sound "real" with less than two watts on efficient speakers -- in fact, it can be done quite easily without clipping the amp. You just aren't going to shake the floors with it. I kind of wish you would chill out with this Paul. I mean, who cares if someone buys a SET or low powered amp? If they don't like it they can sell it and get something else. At any rate, it's gotten to the point where 99% of your posts are like the one above. Hell, I know what you're going to say before I read it. You once said that Kelly's 5000 posts could be reduced to 10 posts and then simply repeated. I would hate to think yours could all be reduced to one. ---------------- I believe you haven't heard low power SET, correct?, and yet you are convinced of some of its merits simply because of reading thousands of posts similar to ones in this thread. The fact that you're swallowing this stuff hook, line, and sinker just shows me I am going to have to double my efforts at getting out the word. As I've said, I am not expecting anyone really into SET to read one of my posts and say, by golly, he's right, I must buy a more powerful amp. That's not going to happen. But there are a lot of people who visit this forum, scan some threads, and never post anything. I would like to protect them from exaggerated claims and making inappropriate purchases. That's all, plain and simple. If you could count on people using the search function and reading archived posts, it wouldn't be necessary to say the same thing 500 times. But you know as well as I do that a lot of people ask things that have been thoroughly answered just a week before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 "I believe you haven't heard low power SET, correct?, and yet you are convinced of some of its merits simply because of reading thousands of posts similar to ones in this thread. The fact that you're swallowing this stuff hook, line, and sinker just shows me I am going to have to double my efforts at getting out the word." The word of god. I hope it works, I'd love to see NOS triodes at 70's prices again. You would be a true tube guru. (Just kidding...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Mike, how did you liked the James OPTs? Deano, I wouldn't expect much chilling out from someone that is on a mission. It's sad but c'est la vie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 ---------------- On 1/25/2004 3:34:57 PM mike stehr wrote: The word of god. I hope it works, I'd love to see NOS triodes at 70's prices again. You would be a true tube guru. (Just kidding...) ---------------- Nope, not even close to attaining divine status. But I do hope I can get your tube prices lower for ya. Probably won't be able to though, as I haven't even begun trying to convince the Asian market of the errors of their ways. There are actually only three people on the Klipsch Forum who don't realize there are any limitations to low-powered amps. Everybody else understands the situation perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 There are actually only three people on the Klipsch Forum who don't realize there are any limitations to low-powered amps. Everybody else understands the situation perfectly. Put me on the everybody else list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Paul, There ARE limitations with low power amps. As there are with most designs, be it speaker, TT, CDP, SACD. What I think you don't understand is that some can prefer a low power SET over a more powerful amp despite those limitations. Usually, those prefering SET had other more powerful amps so their choice was based on actual experience. I don't know, maybe it means something. The fact that you're swallowing this stuff hook, line, and sinker just shows me I am going to have to double my efforts at getting out the word. So if I understand you well, anyone making low power amp recommendations will have you on his back as long as you'll acting as the self proclaimed watchdog here? The future looks so bright... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 >>"The future looks so bright..." Paul, here's an idea for you: Look at your past posts, condense them into one paragraph, save it into a doc on your desktop. Then you can just just cut and paste the saved boilerplate posting into the reply field here. You'll save a lot of time, and the rest of us will too. See? I'm always coming up with positive solutions. I've been closely observing the writings of Guru Fini, so I can contribute more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 ---------------- On 1/25/2004 4:01:26 PM painful reality wrote: Paul, There ARE limitations with low power amps. As there are with most designs, be it speaker, TT, CDP, SACD. What I think you don't understand is that some can prefer a SET over a powerful amp despite those limitations. Usually, those prefering SET had other more powerful amps so their choice was based on actual experience. I don't know, maybe it means something. So if I understand you well, anyone making low power amp recommendations will have you on his back as long as you'll acting as the self proclaim watchdog here? The future looks so bright... ---------------- Of course there are limitations to everything. But some things are more limited than others. Distinctions are all-important. I have no problem with people loving their low-powered SETs. That's their business. And if you check over my hundreds of posts on SET, you won't find a single one in which I criticized the build quality of an amp, nor one in which I said it couldn't sound good under certain circumstances. And certainly I never cussed out anyone for buying SET. Find me a post in which I called anyone foolish for buying a JFL amp. My mission is to counter reckless claims that low-power amps are the be-all and end-all. And the nice thing is, it is obviously true, except to three people here, and holds true no matter what caps, resistors, transformers, or tubes are used. 1.5W can't cut it. Watts do matter, they're not just inconvenient scientific mumbo-jumbo. If over-the-top claims weren't made, there would be nothing to counter. It'd be kind of silly to tell someone who enjoys SET that he isn't enjoying it. But when somebody says 1.5W shakes the plaster off his walls, that kind of thing, I don't see anything wrong with calling him on it. I don't particularly mind if he is happy in Bizarro World, but it doesn't seem right to let an innocent and naive newbie get suckered in. P.S. You know, there are SET forums. You could always hang out there if you want to be surrounded by people who agree with you. You might find arguments about what kind of solder is best, but you won't find people who don't buy the entire premise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 ---------------- On 1/25/2004 4:20:08 PM Tom Mobley wrote: >>"The future looks so bright..." Paul, here's an idea for you: Look at your past posts, condense them into one paragraph, save it into a doc on your desktop. Then you can just just cut and paste the saved boilerplate posting into the reply field here. You'll save a lot of time, and the rest of us will too. See? I'm always coming up with positive solutions. I've been closely observing the writings of Guru Fini, so I can contribute more. ---------------- It's an idea, but sometimes there are variations that need attending to. If you're pressed for time, feel free to skip anything that doesn't apply to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 ---------------- On 1/25/2004 4:00:53 PM Audio Flynn wrote: There are actually only three people on the Klipsch Forum who don't realize there are any limitations to low-powered amps. Everybody else understands the situation perfectly. Put me on the everybody else list. ---------------- I don't actually have an Everybody Else list drawn up! It'd be way too much trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 "I believe you haven't heard low power SET, correct?, and yet you are convinced of some of its merits simply because of reading thousands of posts similar to ones in this thread. The fact that you're swallowing this stuff hook, line, and sinker just shows me I am going to have to double my efforts at getting out the word." Most things have merit Paul. If 3.5 watt DHT 2A3 is better than what I heard through my Apollos, then there would be merit a plenty. What would I be swallowing hook, line, and sinker? That it sounds great? I put that down more to common sense. There are thousands of SET listeners, and I figure there must be something good in the listening experience. Now, as to why it sounds good, and why they like it -- is a different kind of discussion than one related strictly to the power requirements for reproducing real life sound levels of Rock and Orchestra. I think I have read at least 20 posts now by Kelly and Jeff clearly stating that for the things we like to do, PP or higher powered SET is a necessity. I have also heard them say that for the ultimate in transparency at reasonable sound levels, SET is the way to go. Who are we to disagree? We have little if any experience with it. So, until such time that we gain the direct experience, first hand in our systems -- we should refrain from voicing any opinion in a dogmatic fashion. With that out of the way, I think common sense dictates that those, who like me, enjoy loading a room to the absolute maximum -- should probably seriously consider something with more than 10 watts. Now, can we let this die -- and start cultivating the relational aspects of our hobby? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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