NOSValves Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I don't get it........ why would anyone like any kind of spinach Great post Eric ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I wish I knew what people don't hear from SET amps. I'd like to borrow some PP amps for a couple weeks perhaps I am missing something here but so far I like SET. I didn't realize there were only 7 of us time to do some breeding hey where are the females on this forum ? In the future I hope to have a pair of quad II's as these were the amps that convinced me that tubes sound amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Erik, What are you going to try with the Wrights? I would be interested in any sonic improvement gained from replacing that little blue 'lytic cathode bypass capacitor. The components under the chassis of the 3.5 and the Mono 10 are similiar except the PP Mono 10 has 2x the number. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 Hi, Rick: You ask a good question, and right now I really don't know what I'm going to do -- if anything. You have picked out two possibilities for improvement regarding the bypass cap in both the input and output, though. The main one I would consider would be the one across the 2A3 cathode resistor. That could actually be changed to a metal film Solen in the range of 50uf, or so. Or, it could be installed in an Ultrapath (sorry, you all, there's that 'word' again...) configuration. Athough it doesn't bother me too much, the way the small power supply filter cap is installed on the top could be improved upon. He uses a very little capacitor installed in a hole that's way too big, with the mounting holes intended for some larger sized capacitor bracket clearly visible. It has kind of unfinished appearance IMO. One could use something like a JJ Electronics filter cap that would fit the opening much better and look cleaner. But the amps sound good (to me) nevertheless. They sound a little brighter than my Moondogs, which may simply be a matter of the value of interstage coupling capacitors used. But Sure! what you say about the kind of electrolytic used to bypass the cathode resistor on the 6SN7 might be something to consider. For my part, I don't think I would be able to hear the difference between a better qaulity Black Gate and what is there right now. But who knows!? Different coupling capictors could also make a difference, and the current mylars (if that's what they are) could be replaced with like value ceramic disc caps. Yes, I'm kidding about that! I tried it once, and won't do it again. Jensen's might give a more liquid yet still detailed sort of presentation, where metal film/foil types might be a little harder edged and analytical. I can't remember the brand used in JFL's original Horus, but man those were nice sounding capacitors. But then again, what I heard was the cobalt version of the amp, so it's kind of hard to be sure of what it was that was making them sound the way they did. My own Horus use the permalloy OPTs. Still great sounding, I think. I just couldn't afford the cobalts, as much as I would have liked to be able to. IMO, it's a very good SET design, and there are many people very happy with them. I could honestly be satsified with a pair of these, or the SE OTL, or the Moondogs, or the Horus, as my last amplifiers. I just seem to be too much of an experimenter, though, and it's hard to stop wanting to try things out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 ---------------- On 10/11/2004 9:26:13 AM seti wrote: "I wish I knew what people don't hear from SET amps. I'd like to borrow some PP amps for a couple weeks perhaps I am missing something here but so far I like SET. I didn't realize there were only 7 of us..." Well, I've gotten used to having excellent tastes. Used to be surprised, for example, that I might be looking at a table full of shoes on display, pick my favorite and it will be the most expensive on the table. Though, it can be a burden at times. Back in '70 I really wanted to have my left ear pierced and didn't do it. Now I see men with two pierced ears. I'm going to have to wait until it goes out of style before getting that one ear pierced. "....In the future I hope to have a pair of quad II's as these were the amps that convinced me that tubes sound amazing." I heard Dean's and they are indeed amazing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I don't get it........ why would anyone like any kind of spinach Great post Eric ! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I do not like it out of the can. Creamed or in a salad is quite nice. Craig; Are you sure you have not had a spinach salad lately? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 PWK said in an interview that he prefered 2A3's, preferably Brooks, circa late 40's-early 50s'. Probably double-lunged, but who knows? Might be something to it... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 ---------------- On 10/11/2004 5:57:17 PM D-MAN wrote: PWK said in an interview that he prefered 2A3's, preferably Brooks, circa late 40's-early 50s'. Probably double-lunged, but who knows? ---------------- PWK liked his 10 watt push-pull Brook amp with a 2A3, way back then. That's a far cry from a 2A3 SET amp of a couple of watts. He didn't like the Brook enough to use it in the last, oh, 40 years of his life though. As to spinach, raw is the only way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Craig, " This is absolutely not the case with these low powered amps and some that have rolled through here this is extreme. There low end response and top end response are extremely limited this being the case measured at 1/2 watt or there max output. I can prove this with a test eqiupment" What has 'rolled' through there? In my testing the high end of the SE OTL for example is *very* extended, better then SS amps I have tested for example let alone any transformer coupled amps. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 I have no means of testing frequency response other than for the sound catchers on either side of my head, but the SE OTL seems to go on forever in the high end. This is not harshness or an edgy quality. It's a quality that, while very detailed, seems to breathe air and life into the music. I haven't heard any other amp that sounds this way, SS or transformer-coupled (PP or SE). For me, it's not so much an issue of power, but the quality of the output. (This is just my opinion and only reflects the kind of sound I am after). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triode Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 " I know I'm going to get blasted for this but I just for the life of me can not figure what some people expect/want out of your musical experience. I'm not trying to be nasty here but to me these amps unless done to the absolute extreme sound totally anemic and lifeless. Even built to a extreme the still polite sound they produce quickly wears off on me in a few days. Is it that some people just prefer there system to be overly polite compared to me ? I just do not get it. Some use the word transparent which completely boggles me. To me transparent would be what is pumped in comes out the other side. This is absolutely not the case with these low powered amps and some that have rolled through here this is extreme. There low end response and top end response are extremely limited this being the case measured at 1/2 watt or there max output. I can prove this with a test eqiupment which may not be the way to judge them as a final taste issue but it surely gives me a idea what some folks are after. Again I just don't get it. Craig" I'm sure you're also confused why people would listen to classical music. I'm guessing you're a Country Music and NASCAR Fan. You'll need the specs of a Big Amp to impress your friends in the trailer park. After all, they just got a new double wide! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Sfogg, Do you mean extended frequency response but at deminished output ? The amp I tested drop off starting at about 10K to 12K. The Cary 300SIE and AES AE1 were both like this. All tube amps do this to some extent but in comparison it was extreme with these 2 amps. It also happens with my own SET amp. They have a top end and it does extend but at much less output then at 1K and this is true both ways but less so going down in hz. Kind of like this with 1Khz to 1okhz being completely flat with say 5 volts AC RMS as a baseline 20hz 1khz 10khz 35K - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 ---------------- On 10/11/2004 7:07:18 PM triode wrote: " I know I'm going to get blasted for this but I just for the life of me can not figure what some people expect/want out of your musical experience. I'm not trying to be nasty here but to me these amps unless done to the absolute extreme sound totally anemic and lifeless. Even built to a extreme the still polite sound they produce quickly wears off on me in a few days. Is it that some people just prefer there system to be overly polite compared to me ? I just do not get it. Some use the word transparent which completely boggles me. To me transparent would be what is pumped in comes out the other side. This is absolutely not the case with these low powered amps and some that have rolled through here this is extreme. There low end response and top end response are extremely limited this being the case measured at 1/2 watt or there max output. I can prove this with a test eqiupment which may not be the way to judge them as a final taste issue but it surely gives me a idea what some folks are after. Again I just don't get it. Craig" I'm sure you're also confused why people would listen to classical music. I'm guessing you're a Country Music and NASCAR Fan. You'll need the specs of a Big Amp to impress your friends in the trailer park. After all, they just got a new double wide! ---------------- Real nice !! Who dwells in the trailor parks ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 I knew this was going to happen again. Please just forget this issue and move on to something else. I should have just kept my thoughts and impressions to myself. As the originator of this thread, am I allowed to respectfully ask that it be quickly brought to an end and expired? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Erik, Don't worry about it! I have learned for the most part to just to a jab back and then ignore the slams. I ask these questions and it would be nice if people could respond with honest answers, opinions and discussion. But for some reason the low watt folks always take offense and get nasty. Its no big deal we can keep this going in a civil manner. I'm sure Shawn will have some usefull input here. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Triode, you should know that your last post constitutes a banning offense on this forum. Personal attacks are no longer tolerated here, neither by the majority of the members -- and especially the moderators. Craig, it's not "the low watt" folks -- it's just one or two, and Paul isn't helping things either. I agree with you though, lets keep it going, and simply ignore the trolling and baiting when it appears. I think most know what decent push-pull amps sound like, and I would kind of enjoy more discussion aimed at trying to nail down the difference in sound between something like the Wrights and this OTL. I noticed from the specs that it is very wide bandwidth, which should really make it sound substantially different than the Wrights. The Wrights are really laid back, is the OTL that way too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 ---------------- On 10/11/2004 7:30:30 PM Erik Mandaville wrote: Please just forget this issue and move on to something else. I should have just kept my thoughts and impressions to myself. ---------------- No, Eric. Please continue sharing your thoughts. Even though the children (including myself) get a little feisty sometimes, we all find discussions about different amplifiers EXTREMELY interesting. More particularly how these amplifiers interact with the Klipschorns and other loudspeakers in the Heritage range. I like the idea of comparing a low powered SET amplifier, either kit or factory built, with say, a pp tube and a competing high quality solid state amplifier around the same price range. Forgetting the issue of power outputs. Listening at a specified average level measured - say around 90db @ 3 metres - and concentrating on soundstaging, imaging, detail retrieval and reproduction of music micro and macro dynamics. I'm not expecting any amplifier to be so much better than the other, but it would, in my mind set a foundation where I could comfortably evaluate any other amplifier I may listen to. I like the concept of the Klipschorns because we can experiment and have fun with amplification. It's nice to know our loudspeakers can make good music with anything from 1.5 watts to 100 watts. There's not too many other loudspeakers available that can do that. At the moment I'm running a French Atoll 50 watt integretated I've been given from the local hi-fi store in Canberra, demonstrating it for the next door neighbor who may buy this amp with my KLF10's. She bought over her Denon integrated PMA1500R. The Denon sounded absolutely dreadful on the Klipschorns. Limited dynamics, flat sound, I can't believe how bad it sounds on the Klipschorns - neither could my neighbor. But on the KLF10's the Denon sounded okay. The little french amp sounds okay on both the Klipschorn and the KLF1`0's. I've never heard such a difference in the way certain amplification can sound on a pair of loudspeakers. I might add that this Denon puts out about 100 watts per channel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomac Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I say - let the dogs bark and keep the thread going. It's not a bad way to learn. Passion is critical and it's been pretty civil except for the triode newbie. BTW triod, what's wrong with NASCAR and Country Music? Probably best if you keep your post total @13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschfoot Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 If you don't experience different sources, amps, speakers, etc., you will never qualify yourself as an audiophile, let alone, hobbyist. I may not know much about circuits, triodes, pentodes, PP, et al, but I know when I like something. I listen to horns and tubes with examination/appreciation of what each adds or subtracts from the music and i listen to SS with the same approach. Walk into an audio boutique, and the salesman, or, more likely, the owner, might spend more time giving you an education on how to listen than you intended to receive. He knows that if you are more discriminating, you may spend more money for his gear than at BB. Eric's post tells me that I have to be more judgemental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 "I would kind of enjoy more discussion aimed at trying to nail down the difference in sound between something like the Wrights and this OTL." Something like regarding the bass between the two? I would guess the OTL with the higher bandwidth would be audible in comparism to the SET, I was curious about the bass take between the OTL and 2A3 SET. If I recall, didn't SFogg's (Sean?) OTL measured to 100 kHz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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