Klipsch is Resting on Laurels of a Glorious Past

[cjgeraci]

Tom, you make a good point. Personally, I heard (and loved) a variety of Heritage setups in college some years ago, but it was not until fairly recently that I really had the itch (or the money) to start spending substantially on audio items. I became reacquainted with Klipsch through Synergy and began a journey through various Legend and Reference speakers. My journey ended with my RF-7s, which evolved from good to outstanding speakers (x-overs and various equip), and thereafter I wanted to rediscover the Heritage line. I was frustrated by the lack of any Heritage in any local stores, and I had to hunt out local Klipschers just to hear some again. I now enjoy both RF-7s and Heritage in my home and think there is a musical place for both. But, if I had never heard Heritage years ago, I might never have had the motivation to find some to listen to again.

There should at least be sample sets somewhere at dealers in major cities (or at least somewhere in the region).

As for the topic at hand, I admit that I am not that enthusiastic about some of the latest minature Klipsch offerings. I would have to stand up for the upper part of the Reference line, however, once those speakers are matched up to certain equipment.

Carl.

[MrMcGoo]

The reason that Klipsch does not produce lots of big three way Heritage speakers for the home market is due to their high cost, huge size (WAF) and competition from the used Klipsch market. PWK just built the Heritage speakers to be too darn indestructible! Lack of Heritage sales volume means that the development of Reference and Synergy speakers was necessary to prosper.

The commercial market in big three way speakers is a market that Klipsch seems to dominate. Trey stated that they have about 65% of the market for theaters. Klipsch has hardly fallen on hard times with big speakers.

Klipsch covers more of the market today than it did in PWK's day. If folks want new Heritage speakers, they can still buy them, but they are a bit spendy. Why should I not be able to buy RF-7s for the home theater market?

Bill

[mike stehr]

Why should I not be able to buy RF-7s for the home theater market?

I think you did, didn't you?

So being we are in Eastern WA., I assume one would have to go to the west side of the state to audition RF-7's at a dealership? Unless there's something in the Tri-cities....

[J.4knee]

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On 2/9/2005 4:15:29 PM Thoriated_Tiger wrote:

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On 2/9/2005 4:07:37 PM J.4knee wrote:

I am only going to address one point here....

Is that not a derivative of the horns efficiency...move a sizable column of air with minimal movement of source element hence a cleaner sound.

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Not.. quite. THere are a few cone speakers rated at 99db / 1w. For example, the Inifnity SM series. very very efficient, would go real loud on little power.

Dirty was too kind a word for these. Efficiency != cleanliness.

The reason the horn is cleaner is because it has a much shorter excursion vs. a comparable direct radiator. This is because the horn itself acts as a mechanical transformer. Make a tiny wiggle into a big wiggle mechanically.

A high efficiency direct radiator is still a direct radiator, subject to all of its drawbacks. The only advantage is, you can get loud dirt with little power expended

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I think we said the same thing here:

"The reason the horn is cleaner is because it has a much shorter excursion vs. a comparable direct radiator This is because the horn itself acts as a mechanical transformer. Make a tiny wiggle into a big wiggle mechanically.

"

"move a sizable column of air with minimal movement of source element hence a cleaner sound."

Kind of a "two people separated by a common language thing"

[MrMcGoo]

Mike,

The RF-7s were purchased in Spokane at Magnolia. Not only has Magnolia discontinued Klipsch (or vice versa), but the Spokane Magnolia is going out of business. Other Magnolias are ok.

I just can't see myself finding room for a Heritage 7.1 theater. It would be great, if I had the room. The Reference 7 package is excellent for both movies and music. The crossover mod by DeanG makes the 7s sing a very sweet tune on music. They can still blast me out of my seat during movies due to good amplification.

Bill

[mike stehr]

"Mike,

The RF-7s were purchased in Spokane at Magnolia. Not only has Magnolia discontinued Klipsch (or vice versa), but the Spokane Magnolia is going out of business. Other Magnolias are ok."

I knew about Magnolia not selling Klipsch anymore, but I had not known about the Spokane Magnolia Hi-Fi shutting down.

Gee....what's left, Huppins? Does that even count? I haven't been there in years.

"I just can't see myself finding room for a Heritage 7.1 theater. It would be great, if I had the room. The Reference 7 package is excellent for both movies and music. The crossover mod by DeanG makes the 7s sing a very sweet tune on music. They can still blast me out of my seat during movies due to good amplification."

Bill

That would take up some space. I barely have room for my Cornwalls.

I've read your gear profile, you have a nice HT setup.

I just "S" link the DVD player to the television.

Two channel HT with the SVS 16/46's. It's fine for me, I'm 10% DVD movies, and 90% music. (Using the DVD player for 2 channel music.)

I guess it's getting hard pressed for decent audio joints around here, much less people into 2 channel home audio.

Of course, I don't get out much....so there may be more than I think.

You had Dean build you crossover networks for your RF-7's, curious to hear that.

[TBrennan]

As anyone who understands the work of PWK knows taking a cone woofer up into the highs creates a great deal of modulation distortion.

Now if you want to do cones with lower distortion you do 3-way cones with a dedicated midrange cone, like Bozaks, rather than 2-ways. The lower the woofer crosses over the lower the distortion, simple.

[Marvel]

Tom,

You mean something like the two 10" JBL mids that John Warren did for the KHorn?

I was looking a a 6.5" B&C driver (99db@ 1 watt, etc., model 6PEV13). Might work out.

Marvel

[Tom Adams]

Mr.McGoo - I hear what your saying and agree somewhat. However, I'm not so sure I buy-in to the comment about competition from the used Heritage market. I mean, there will always be a certain segment of the market that seeks out low investment opportunities. Obviously, we know these folks by the more common species name of cheapus bast*rdsus.

Seriously though....all one has to do is to look at the photos on AudioGon of T.H.E. Show and you realize that there's a boat load of very high-end audio gear out there that's catering to folks that have large amounts of disposible incomes. Look at Tyler Acoustics - that guy builds custom speakers that are composed of speaker components he sources from various manufacturers. He doesn't really "design" anything. Now, I will admit that I've never heard his speakers and for all I know, they might sound great. But he has no formal background in speaker design and basically builds the things himself. What he lacks in knowledge/theory/engineering he makes up for with energy and risk taking. According to an interview, he turns out 27 or so pairs of his largest speakers a month. How many Klipschorns does Hope turn out a month? My point is that if Tyler can sell 27/month of his homegrown speakers (which my gut tells me ain't that good) at $16K a pop, why can't Klipsch Heritage fill that need too? For every one cheapus bast*rdsus out there, there's several others who are not and are looking for that unique "something".

In fact, I'm gonna go waaaaay out on a limb here (please someone, take that saw away from him) and say what I think would make the Heritage line take off. I believe that if Klipsch were to possibly "dress-up" the Heritage line esthetically, use premium components in the crossovers, possibly tweek the horns via material/driver changes, hype market them as "Second Generation Heritage", and increase the price by 50% or more; the damn things would fly off the shelves. Why? The perception of exclusivity. It's what makes people shell out stupid money for Tyler Acoustics speakers and CODA amplifiers and Porches.

Tom

[sfogg]

" Look at Tyler Acoustics - that guy builds custom speakers that are composed of speaker components he sources from various manufacturers. "

Who made the K77.... K55....K33?

"He doesn't really "design" anything. "

Of course he does. A bunch of drivers in a box will sound lousy without a crossover. And the box needs to be designed as well.

Far far far more speaker manufacturers use third party drivers in their speaker designs then those that build all their drivers in house. There are plenty of companies that source their drivers AND their enclosures from outside companies. They basically build the crossovers and put them and the drivers in the boxes.

"It's what makes people shell out stupid money for Tyler Acoustics speakers"

There are numerous speakers that sell for even 10x more then Tylers top models. They too tend to purchase their drivers from other manufacturers.

Shawn

[Guest Joshua Ryan Hall]

Thoriated_Tiger wrote:

PWK didnt use horns for efficiency, he did so for cleanliness.

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Paul W. Klipsch absolutely chose horns for their efficiency. I know because he told me.

Klipschs Law of Efficiency:

Efficiency is inversely proportional to distortion.

As efficiency rises, distortion falls. Klipschs high efficiency allows us to create speakers that have a fraction of the distortion of ordinary speakers and draw less power.

Paul W. Klipsch discovered that the use of horn technology was and is the best way to get high efficiency and low distortion from a loudspeaker. In addition, horn technology also brings the added benefits of controlled directivity, even tonal balance and wide dynamic range. Together, these four design principles high efficiency with low distortion, controlled directivity, even tonal balance, and wide dynamic range are the foundation for Klipschs design engineering philosophy.

Every Klipsch speaker exhibits these characteristics whether it looks like a Klipschorn or something completely new and different.

You guys know I'm not a technical person and I cannot argue individual points, but I can tell you that Klipsch and its management team, including Fred Klipsch, care deeply about who we are and what we stand for. We stir souls and transport people to a different place and time, at least for a little while.

We are committed to developing products that create engaging, emotional and dynamic entertainment experiences and there are so many ways to go about doing that and so many personal preferences that the possibilities are endless.

Also, as a point of reference with the Heritage line, we make and sell just as many of these speakers as they do Hummers, Rolls Royces and Maybachs. Not really a fair comparison, but I think it's interesting.

--Joshua Ryan Hall

Public Relations Manager

[Tom Adams]

Shawn - You missed my point (which is probably understandable seeings how I tend to not type exactly what I'm thinking).

I know Klipsch does not build their drivers in-house and most source their drivers from 3rd parties. What I was trying to point out was that Klipsch has a lot more engineering design power to draw from than some one like Tyler (BTW, I wasn't trying to single out Tyler - they were just the first name that popped into my head). Additionally, I think it's safe to assume that Klipsch doesn't aquire a driver and then builds the crossover & cabinet around it like a company like Tyler would do. The process, I would imagine, is much more synergistic. Anyhow, I was merely trying to illustrate that there is a definite market for high-end, exclusive (elusive?) audio gear.

Joshua - Thanks for weighing-in here and thanks for the info/feedback. Not to be argumentative, but if you guys are cranking out Heritage like Hummers, how come none of us here see it? I mean, there's a pretty decent cross-section of Americana here and I can't recall one single post entitled, "OMG! My dealer has Heritage in showroom!" But I tell you what....when I go to the tennis courts today, you can rest assured that Vaden Hummer will have all their shiny new Hummers displayed for all the world to see.

Tom

[Marvel]

Tom,

All lot of people, especially those who spend the money on Heritage equipment, probably aren't even aware that this site or forum exists. It isn't until someone tells you or you have a problem that you start looking around. Or you are a tweaker like Dean.

If Dean hadn't already been messing with Klipsch products, he could have purchased Khorns and been happy to have them in his house as is.

Marvel

[Guest Joshua Ryan Hall]

Tom:

I was referring to Hummer, not H2.

--Joshua

[jpm]

Bry's Appliance in Marysville, WA (authorized Klipsch dealer) always has and always will carry the full Heritage Line.

[Thoriated_Tiger]

Apologies in advance for the length of this post.

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On 2/10/2005 11:52:22 AM Joshua Ryan Hall wrote:

Paul W. Klipsch absolutely chose horns for their efficiency. I know because he told me.

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I stand corrected. It is sometimes difficult to separate efficiency from low distortion, when reading Mr. Klipsch's writings on the subject and the writings of those who have interviewed him.

I'll put out this little nugget from an interview of Mr. Klipsch for Speaker Builder, done by Bruce Edgar:

(BE) What inspired you to build horns?

(PWK) They are more efficient. It was many years after we built horns commercially that we realized efficiency per se wasn't all that important. The best reason is the lowered distortion you obtain from horns.

Clear as Lowther? (mud?)

I appreciate your comments and reassurance, Mr Hall. I don't think anyone (yet) has flat-out accused Klipsch of selling out and becoming a "me too" speaker maker. If anything, I think the Reference is visually striking, and won't be confused with anyone else's product.

The problem is one of perception. Many die-hards who remember or still use your outstanding speakers of yore perceive the modern ones to be a little less than stellar.

Frankly, to my ear, they are. But y'know what? They *still* slaughter most of the competition, at least in my estimation.

I bought SF2 instead of Reference because I didn't find the difference in cleanliness to be that much bigger in the Reference. Not in the limited time I had to hear both. Then I thought about upgrading to Reference anyway (more expensive = better, right?), and that's when I heared a pair of Cornwalls at a friend's house, and heared, again, what that midrange horn does -- I scrapped my plans for Reference, and bought Forte. The SF2s migrated to my HT, where they displaced a five-channel Infinity SM system, and were joined by an SC1 and a pair of SB2s to complete the 5 channel Synergy setup.

Much much better sound from the little Synergies than from Boston Acoustics, Bose, Infinity, JBL, and a host of others I listened to prior to getting the Synergies and Fortes.

As I opined in an earlier post, the RF and Synergy line handle the mids with cones. This is so contrary, so heretical, so anathema to the Klipsch philosophy that it can color one's perceptions about the whole line. The lack of midrange horn is noticable in a direct comparison between Heritage and Synergy / Reference, at least to my ear. It isn't subtle, it's pretty blatant. To me, anyway.

That's why I was rather pleased to learn via this thread Klipsch apparently has this thing called Reference Premier which will be handling the midrange with horn. That pleases me because it lets me know y'all didn't forget why all the old Ks have a midrange horn... not to mention, give us Heritage-like performance in a more space-efficient, more modern package (I personally prefer the older speaker style, short n' squat, but I'm in the minority these days, I guess.. progress n' all..)

As long as y'all make speakers which are *noticably* cleaner than the conventional-thinking competition, you're okkay. Aw hell, the way the market works, you could just make mediocre speakers like Everyone Else and still make a killin'... but that's not the Klipsch way.

[sfogg]

"Anyhow, I was merely trying to illustrate that there is a definite market for high-end, exclusive (elusive?) audio gear."

Certainly, but can you really have high-end, *exclusive* audio gear in this country that is also sold by the same name/company as a PC sound system sold at Best Buy for $99?

Think of a few of the really high end exclusive speaker manufacturers. Look at Wilson Audio... their *cheapest* speakers are somewhere around $7k if I'm remembering prices properly. They only go up from there. Their long time bread and butter speakers (Watt/Puppies... around $18k now) used a Focal tweeter, Scanspeak woofer and I think Peerless bass drivers in very well done cabinets and crossovers. The fact that you don't see Wilson everyone lets them keep the *exclusive* tag. You could buy almost the same drivers from Madisound or PartsExpress for well under $1000 for a pair of speakers. And in fact intrepid DIYers have 'cloned' different Wilson models.

I don't think many people that are into that *exclusive* cachet will be interested in a product by a company that also has products available at Best Buy. It isn't an exclusive name if the kid down the street is using a product from that company on his PS2.

Few examples.....

JBL can't really sell their K2s in America. Almost nobody takes them seriously based on listening to a pair of $200 a pair JBLs at Tweeter or Circuit City. We had a thread touch on this just a week or two back.

When Honda wanted to sell an upscale line of cars in America what did they do? Created a new name to sell cars. After all how many American's are willing to buy a $70k Honda. But call it an Acura NSX and people are interested. In the rest of the world it is still sold as a Honda. Same for Infinity... and Lexus. Heck... GM even did this to try to get away from the stigma that was attached to a 'GM.'

And like it or not the prevailing attitude/perception in the high end is that horns suck. Why do you think so many speakers that are horn loaded are not marketed as such? They are instead sold as having 'Wave Guides' on their tweeters.

I think Klipsch would face a huge uphill battle trying to really break into that exclusive totally high end niche marketplace line of speakers. Besides the fact that it would be interesting to see how they attacked that market I'm not sure I'd see the point. They would probably still make more money off those $99 speaker systems at Best Buy.

Shawn

[D-MAN]

What Shawn said!

DM

[Deang]

You guys are killing me. You better have some serious quality gear behind your eBay Heritage setup if you want to dance with a set of RF-7's and a high quality sub.

I've been listening with K-55-V's and Type A's on my Klipschorns for the last few days, if you're good -- I WON'T tell you what I think.

[mike stehr]

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