Klipsch is Resting on Laurels of a Glorious Past

[edwinr]

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On 2/12/2005 7:01:08 PM hsosdrum wrote:

I guess Genelec has sewn-up the big box studio monitor market.

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The British brand, ATC, is doing big business in the big box monitor market at the moment with their Active 50, 100 and 150 loudspeakers. Telarc is just one studio that uses them for their SACD mixes.

[TBrennan]

Never mind. I'm not gonna argue with Trey, it's his forum.

[jdm56]

Whew, I just read this whole friggin' thread!

Welcome to the club, hsosdrum! A newbie going toe to toe with TomB - can you say "baptism by fire"? Anyway, I enjoyed your posts and the experience and perspective you bring.

BTW, my experience with k-horns is pretty much identical to yours. I owned an AK-3 pair of '98's for six years, and in my current house, I had only one room where I could put them, and they just flat would not sing in there! Very frustrating, having in my mind the glorious sound I had heard from k-horns in other, invariably larger & more live rooms, and not being able to get it in my room with my horns. I had the same problems you mentioned, most notably the uneven bass. It was just horrible below 100Hz, unless I sat within two feet of the back wall, which kinda put the kibosh on doing back-surrounds. Anyway, factoring in some financial "considerations" and a desire to down-size, I finally had to give up on them.

Someone mentioned midrange: Now talk about more than one way to skin a cat! The best mids I've ever heard reproduced have been from (in no particular order) Magnepan three-ways, Martin-Logan electrostats, klipschorns, and any B&W using their "FST" midrange driver.

As for the availability/viability of klipsch heritage in the marketplace, I think the problem is not klispch's. It all comes back to what sells. If klipsch could sell boat loads of new heritage, there would be dealers clamouring for them! The fact is, thin is in, and multichannel practically demands smaller, skinnier, and less expensive speakers. And the high performance two-channel segment just isn't big enough to support mass-market numbers. Everyone should just be glad (and amazed) that new heritage is available at all!

[John Warren]

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On 2/12/2005 10:53:29 PM Trey Cannon wrote:

The Klipsch LAW is just that a LAW. It can apply to many things.

efficency = 1/distortion

>>I know of no such "law".

There is a realtionship between transducer efficiency, bandwidth and enclosure volume (i.e. size). It is not casual, it is derived from the equivalent circuit.

As a moderator and representative of the Klipsch company, I hold

you to a higher standard on this board. What you've cited is simply not true.

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[Audio Flynn]

BTW, my experience with k-horns is pretty much identical to yours. I owned an AK-3 pair of '98's for six years, and in my current house, I had only one room where I could put them, and they just flat would not sing in there! Very frustrating, having in my mind the glorious sound I had heard from k-horns in other, invariably larger & more live rooms, and not being able to get it in my room with my horns. I had the same problems you mentioned, most notably the uneven bass. It was just horrible below 100Hz, unless I sat within two feet of the back wall, which kinda put the kibosh on doing back-surrounds. Anyway, factoring in some financial "considerations" and a desire to down-size, I finally had to give up on them.

++++++++++++++++++++

Not that I am scared off by the implementation of K Horns in a room. I just would not like to force fit them into my smallish to medium size room and be disappointed. I really like the way my Chorus IIs sound right now and have even shelved idea to get LaScalas even though I perceive the LaScala mid to be superior.

Unless I get a chance to design a retirement home in years to come speifically for the K Horn (which should have a belle center to be PWK retro I think?); I will probably stay where I am at.

Unless some gorgous pair of Belles comes up for sale locally I will just stay put.

May need to do that crossover mod from Deano when I quit buying nasty old amps fro Craig to rebuild.

Welcome HSOS

Seems like you have much to contribute.

Nice to see Trey have time enough to chime in on the techinical in such detail. I realize this is his job and would not expect him to cruise the forum much during his psersonal time.

[Trey Cannon]

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On 2/13/2005 7:08:10 AM John Warren wrote:

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On 2/12/2005 10:53:29 PM Trey Cannon wrote:

The Klipsch LAW is just that a LAW. It can apply to many things.

efficency = 1/distortion

>>I know of no such "law".

There is a realtionship between transducer efficiency, bandwidth and enclosure volume (i.e. size). It is not casual, it is derived from the equivalent circuit.

As a moderator and representative of the Klipsch company, I hold

you to a higher standard on this board. What you've cited is simply not true.

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I have always been told that this is called 'Klipsch's Law".

I am sorry if what I said is missleading...

Here is what the man said....

http://www.klipsch.com/thegarage/video/effici.mov

[hsosdrum]

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On 2/12/2005 10:53:29 PM Trey Cannon wrote:

BTW: remember that the Khorn, Belle, La Scala, Cornwall all use the K-33.

As a driver, it is not the best in the wrold...It only moves a short distance. In the 3 speakers that are horn loaded, it works in a sealed cabinet as a compresion driver. moves a short distance in a seald cabinet, this is about as easy of a job that you could ask from that driver.

In the cornwall it has to work harder. going up to 700Hz (rolling off at 12db per Oct.) So if you have 100db @ 500Hz you should still have 88db @ 1000Hz. Whitch is a lot of mids coming from the woofer....

Wait, someone said that was bad...but they like the way the Cornwall sounds...

Trey:

I think I'm the one who "said that was bad". I own Cornwalls and I like the way they sound, but as you said earlier in your post, every crossover point is a chance to mess things up. The further away you can get those crossover points from smack in the middle of the midrange (where our ears are the most sensitive) and the vocal range (where our ears are most likely to hear anomalies), the better the speaker will sound, all other things being equal (although they never are).

As you say, asking the K-33 driver to be equally adept at reproducing 40Hz and 700Hz both at the same time is indeed asking a lot. IMHO, a good rule of thumb would be to ask each driver to cover no more than a decade: 20Hz - 200Hz, 200Hz - 2kHz, 2kHz - 20kHz. Both of these crossover points are well out of the vocal range.

Of all the Klipsch Heritage speakers, the K-Horn comes closest to this (35Hz - 400Hz, 400Hz - 5kHz, 5kHz - 17.5kHz, with slight variations depending on the vintage). I'm sure that having the squawker cover such a wide range is one of the big reasons it reproduces voices so well.

While I have you on the line, Trey, since 1978 (when the K-Horns I used to own were built) has Klipsch made improvements in the K-Horn network that compensate for the time arrival differences caused by the 3 different horn depths? Having the woofer's acoustic point of origin almost 5 feet behind the squawker's and the squawker's 2 feet behind the tweeter's plays havoc with the speaker's ability to deliver a convincing 3-dimensional soundstage. Side-to-side imaging is pinpoint specific, but I've never heard K-Horns do much at all with front-to-back, and I know that's gotta be caused by some pretty extreme arrival time differences due to the horn depths.

There's been a lot of work done by pro speaker companies to deal with this phenomenon in speakers used in very large arrays. (Those speakers are all driven by digital processors, which use delay to properly align the acoustic origins of the driver elements in the horizontal dimension. EAW's the only company I've seen that also has addressed misalignment in the vertical dimension.)

-hsosdrum

[fini]

I love seeing those PWK videos. Is there a full-length video available somewhere?

[hsosdrum]

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On 2/13/2005 4:09:19 AM jdm56 wrote:

Whew, I just read this whole friggin' thread!

Welcome to the club, hsosdrum! A newbie going toe to toe with TomB - can you say "baptism by fire"? Anyway, I enjoyed your posts and the experience and perspective you bring.

JDM56:

Thank you. Although I may be a newbie to this forum, I've been working in the audio industry since 1977 (for 3 different manufacturers: Nakamichi, Kenwood and now Sonance), owned Klipsch speakers since 1978, and was honored to be able to have a private lunch with PWK when he was in L.A. to receive his AES Silver Medal in 1979. (1978? I can't remember. Curse this getting old thing.)

During that lunch I asked PWK what the depth of the K-Horn woofer would be if it were a straight horn, and he worked-out the exponential sections mathematically, drew them on a piece of notebook paper and let me make a copy of the page. (BTW, the length is 93" -- 7' 9".) He also let me make copies of the frequency response graphs for the K-Horn, Heresy and LaScala that were in the book he always carried with him.

And of course, I have a bound copy of the "Audio Papers" that Klipsch offered back in the 70s, and copies of all the "Dope From Hope"s that Klipsch offered from the beginning through 1980. I've read-through these dozens (if not hundreds) of times. BTW, I highly recommend that anyone with more than a passing intrest in audio get their hands on the "Audio Papers" collection, particularly Bell Telephone's original "Symposium On Auditory Perspective" and W.B. Snow's "Basic Principles of Stereophonic Sound". These are the basis for all current knowledge of stereophonic sound reproduction. Vital stuff if you want to know why things sound the way they do in 2-channel music reproduction systems.

So I don't consider myself anything close to a newbie when it comes to audio in general, and Klipsch in particular. I'm comfortable talking about speaker design with anyone.

-hsosdrum

[jdm56]

No, I would definitely not say you're a newbie to audio! - just to this little cyber-slice of the audiophile spectra.

...And I, for one, will try to check out some of your recommended reading. Thanks!

[Audio Flynn]

So I don't consider myself anything close to a newbie when it comes to audio in general, and Klipsch in particular. I'm comfortable talking about speaker design with anyone.

-hsosdrum

++++++++++++++++++++

even though you bee a bit of a buctt kicker in experience; some will mess with with you.

Do not get torqued and go away just ignore the dolts.

i am pretty much afraid you can get over allot of our heads in about 30 words or less.

But we gonna mess with you for fun from time to time just the same for no intelligent reason other than "we be jealous".

Personal time with PWK; really cool.

Personal time with Trey and his team members; priceless.

Shameless plug!

Tired; cannot sleep; been drinkin'; cannot jam the 2 channel cause every bodys sleepin'

But the typin feels good tontight.

Rick

[jdm56]

Hey Rick, you got no cans?

I can listen at low levels any time day or night, cause my music room's in the basement and only my oldest boy sleeps downstairs (like a log). But still, if I wanna jam, I slip on the ol' Sennheiser 580's and let'er rip. The cans are kinda nice for a change of perspective on occasion anyway.

[Audio Flynn]

I got the serious Studio Grade AKGs from 1978; but I do not like the have my ears cluttered.

6 years of compettitive swimming with ears underwater in my later competitive years up to 5 hours per day. I just are a bit "allergic ' to the feel of "phones".

Had to get the old early 70s Yammie tuner warmed up tonight for the first time in 3 months. Just felt the need. Moved my powered Rat Shack nice powered attena from the HT ( Which just added Sirius last month) to the 2 channel.

Just getting the best quality signal jazz station in now. Too much vannilla current cool jazz but it is pleasant. it is quiet upstairs but I can still hear it.

[IB Slammin]

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On 2/12/2005 10:50:49 PM 3dzapper wrote:

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On 2/12/2005 10:33:02 PM IB Slammin wrote:

Been out of town for a while, and this has been a fun read.

So,.... George Orwell was a Brit?

Terry

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Terry LMBO.

Rick

LMBO the new poli-correct way to say.....

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Rick, we fenda be sophisticats now. We done did it.

Regards,

Terry

[hsosdrum]

On 2/14/2005 2:13:55 AM Audio Flynn wrote:

even though you bee a bit of a buctt kicker in experience; some will mess with with you.

Do not get torqued and go away just ignore the dolts.

-----------------------------------------------------

Audio Flynn:

Thanks for the warning. I like it when things get heated in on-line forums -- that's when you really have to think about what you believe and why, and if you can keep an open mind you always come-away from it knowing more than you did before you joined-in. After all, we're just a bunch of audio nerds having fun.

Compared with the unmoderated drummer's newsgroup that I subscribed to 8 - 9 years ago (alt.music.makers.percussion) this forum's downright genteel. Back in those days the Internet was way more wild and wooly (kind of like the wild west) than it is now. Lots of name-calling. And like now, it was fun stuff.

-hsosdrum

[007]

wow, I was going say this is a dumb topic, but I understand where you dino's are coming from.. The Triassic period.. I MEAN 1965. I MEAN LONG BEFORE I WAS BORN. Perhaps one day, I may buy the heritage stuff if I have loads of money.. but Ill never like the way it looks over modern speakers. So in a way.. yes, I DONT Want heritage despite its reputation. Id rather have dynaudio or krell, or hell, even Wilson or maybe Klipsch premier when it comes out.

The heritage can only be used in very specific applications. Large tuned rooms. In this day and age we have things like PCs and some people on those pcs like to have sound. I dont think a khorn would fit on my desk much less an RF-anything, so I got some rsxs. (Promedia before them) I have to admit, for their size, they are wonderful. And Im sure they sound a lot better than heritage at the listening distance I have them at. (2-3 feet). So for my pc, Ill take rsxs, but if I had a HT of my dreams, I think id take the Ultra THX2 system over a heritage one. I just think it would be more efficient. I mean after all, that system is for movies. Klipsch keeps up with the times, and they have specific speakers for specific reason. Heritage simply can not fit into all applications these days.

[ottscay]

I really do not think Klipsch is "resting on its laurels." LMAO at 007's post, I gotta say. I really prefer the appearance of the RF line. Granted, I wouldn't buy just for looks, but I do appreciate the way the rf series integrates into my livingroom/HT room. Also, since I use the system about 45% of the time for movies, the RF systems are ideal for my surround listening. Finally, while I know there are speakers (including select heritage series) that can out perform my rf-35s, there aren't many at this price point, unless I want to go used, which voids the waranty, and doesn't provide money to Klipsch for R & D. So for those of you who love the Heritage sound, great, but get off your damned high-horses about the Reference speakers. The single best sounding speaker system I've ever heard is still a 5.1 all rf-7 (ok, one rc-7) system (it will be mine, oh yes, it will be mine!) driven by outlaw monoblocks.

Also, while I haven't heard the new Ref Premier line, I wouldn't call its development an example of Klipsch "resting on it's laurels." Looks to me like an all-out attempt to redefine the highend, Klipsch style.

Scott

[Trey Cannon]

.....While I have you on the line, Trey, since 1978 (when the K-Horns I used to own were built) has Klipsch made improvements in the K-Horn network that compensate for the time arrival differences caused by the 3 different horn depths? Having the woofer's acoustic point of origin almost 5 feet behind the squawker's and the squawker's 2 feet behind the tweeter's plays havoc with the speaker's ability to deliver a convincing 3-dimensional soundstage. Side-to-side imaging is pinpoint specific, but I've never heard K-Horns do much at all with front-to-back, and I know that's gotta be caused by some pretty extreme arrival time differences due to the horn depths.

There's been a lot of work done by pro speaker companies to deal with this phenomenon in speakers used in very large arrays. (Those speakers are all driven by digital processors, which use delay to properly align the acoustic origins of the driver elements in the horizontal dimension. EAW's the only company I've seen that also has addressed misalignment in the vertical dimension.)

-hsosdrum

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No, PWK did not take that into account and we have not changed that.

In 2003 we were forced to make a dirver change. With that change, we made a network change.

Our goal was to keep the speakers sounding as good (or better) than with the old drivers.

We went back to a mid driver that is very close to the "V" you would have had in the 1978 units.

The tweeter is also close. The new network is much more "indepth". Most think it is better.

[Klewless]

Trey,

Your Klipsch Law was indirectly mentioned in the American Airlines Interview with Paul Klipsch that Gil just posted. Right at the end of the article.

I personally think that Paul was talking about acoustic efficiency of individual drive units. I am aware that the use of various interpretations of terms comes into play here.

[KT66]

Everyone should just be glad (and amazed) that new heritage is available at all! ----------------------------------------------------

Yea .. but without PWK's watchfull eye what sort of new Heritage BS is available ?

I'm pretty qualified to ask (even answer) this question considering I HAVE new heritage LS & H II and I can plainly spot a few things PWK would have grumbled at vigorously & even fired a few .. rockets. For a start XO components are BS when compared with the vintage versions and this is in what you can see ... heaven knows what BS lurks where you can not. I'll spare Hope the list.

You see, in those halcion days people took pride in what they made and marketed aka professional integrity. But bean counters as we all know rule these days so anything is honest fayre- even BS.

I'll tell ya .. again, 'resting on past laurels' is a corporate prerogative and good honest fayre too in the eyes of its new CEO(BTW, an extra terrestrial ... as some one told me ) .