imperfectcircle25 Posted June 17, 2005 Author Share Posted June 17, 2005 I might have blamed my cd player if it was $100 cheapie, but its not its a $1200 Ah! Super Tjoeb 4000/upsampled with Seimens Nos 7308 tubes, this player is pretty popular with the Klipsch crowd, its definitly not a bright, harsh sounding player. But Ill try a differant player just to be sure, my dealer carries Musical Fidelity, the A5 cd player with its tube output stage may be a good match, but its quite expensive to use in a system using the Klipsch's, but Ill give it a shot. Thanks Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 imperfect, The DeanG crossover mods are excellent and worh a try. I have the modded crossovers and love them. You would likely get more improvement with DeanG crossovers than a new CD player is likely to produce. Your current CD seems like a good choice to run with Klipsch speakers. However, the principle suspect is your integrated amp in my view. It is very under powered for a solid state amp. It cannot deal with the 2.8 ohm minimum impedance of the RF-7s. Folks that have monster solid state amps report better mid range performance and better bass with less harshness. If those 50 watts were tube watts with a 4 ohm taps, then the result would be very different as well. Solid state amps that have good results are 200 watts or higher models from B&K, Rotel, Parasound and Sunfire. One member has reported excellent result from a Levinson amp. Nobody has ever reported good results with RF-7s that I can remember from a 50 or 100 watt integrated solid state amp. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 "Nobody has ever reported good results with RF-7s that I can remember from a 50 or 100 watt integrated solid state amp." Absolutely, you have to go with at least a 15 wpc tube amp. Let's see, how do we keep this guy a Klipsch owner? How about I build the networks and send them to you for a try out? If your jaw doesn't hit the floor, you send them back, load up the stock networks and sell the RF-7's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wstrickland1 Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Dean, I heard you know your stuff bro. I have KLF 30 mains, KLF C7 Center, KLF 20 sides and RB-35(for now) backs. I'm running B & K Ref 50/Ref 200.7 set up, mostly watching movies but do a fair amount of multi-channel audio from a Denon 2900 and a garden variety Sony CD changer. Everything sounds good to me.....really really good.....but what improvements can be made, what would the approximate cost be and how hard is it to do? Sorry to get off the RF-7 track here but what the heck. I think it has pretty been beaten to death anyway. Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 LOL, well, we beat everything to death around here. I charge a little over $200 to replace all the caps, resistors, and to ship back. 'Popbumper' Chris Munson does a full blown upgrade on those which also includes new PCBs, autotransformers, and inductors. He's getting good reports on what he calls the Munsonic K-stack. Cool product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 ---------------- On 6/17/2005 5:03:11 PM imperfectcircle25 wrote: I might have blamed my cd player if it was $100 cheapie, but its not its a $1200 Ah! Super Tjoeb 4000/upsampled with Seimens Nos 7308 tubes, this player is pretty popular with the Klipsch crowd, its definitly not a bright, harsh sounding player. But Ill try a differant player just to be sure, my dealer carries Musical Fidelity, the A5 cd player with its tube output stage may be a good match, but its quite expensive to use in a system using the Klipsch's, but Ill give it a shot. Thanks Frank ---------------- Its not your CD Player. I have a Philips 963 SA with the blackgate mod that sounded great, but a littlle harsh at times when turned up (just a little). I went to an AH! Njoe non-upsampled and I can listen as loud as I want with no fatigue on K Horns. I hung in there with the K Horns and Dean is right, I wanted to take a chainsaw to them several times. I am very pleased now. (all it took was false corners, crossovers and replacing my entire upstream system!) I am not famailiar with your integrated, but I had a $4,000 Denon receiver hooked up earlier tonight and my K Horns sound so much better with my Peach preamp and $100 Teac digital amp (Ie fatigue / harsness gone - Klipsch like tubes, and digital amps for that matter). Whatever you choose, good luck to you. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewishAMerPrince Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 I agree you should try Dean's mods. I was a big a skeptic as anyone till a couple of months ago when I gave them a shot. Getting rid of the HF ringing really makes an incredible difference in the "musical involvement". Jerry Rappaport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 ---------------- On 6/16/2005 10:50:05 PM DeanG wrote: I guess you havent seen the response plots from the Sound & Vision Review. The RF-7 is anything but flat. Just like ALL Klipsch speakers -- smooth response takes a back seat to sensitivity. The HF response is always a bit rough. ---------------- Dean, I'm not saying that it is flat but I'm saying you could offer a setup that drops the horn back by about 5 or 6 db and sell it to the guys who want one. I believe you have probably had 10 that you could have sold in the last 4 months. Since I'm a business owner and enjoy marketing, I believe you should offer a "second option" in your business. I realize you personally do not like the idea of doing that, but you could still offer it. I'm just trying to be helpful Dean, sieze the opportunity here and expand your crossover options. Plus, I think it would be fun to do! Go Dean Go!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 Spkrdctr, Just a possible view of creating a crossover that attenuates the hf on the RF-7 (I don't know Dean's thoughts on this): With upgraded crossover caps and the slight reduction in what seems to be a peak in the horn's frequency response (Dean's current approach which which is similar to mods I have implemented on my RF-7s), the RF-7 is a very impressive speaker. If source, and amplification are high quality and noise sources such as power line rf are addressed, the speaker is not what I would call bright. Further hf reduction would begin to make the speaker sound dead when used in a good system. If sources and amplification are distorted and noisy (noise I'm refering to here is modulation of the audio by noise sources such as rf), then the RF-7's impressive ability to resolve upper midrange and high frequency detail gives the listener an earful of the noise and distortion, which is often interpreted as "bright" by listeners. Good speakers in general will sound bad in distorted and noisy systems. The RF-7 is no exception. I'm not sure dumbing down the speaker is the answer. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texxas guy Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 ---------------- On 6/17/2005 10:03:31 PM DeanG wrote: " Let's see, how do we keep this guy a Klipsch owner? How about I build the networks and send them to you for a try out? If your jaw doesn't hit the floor, you send them back, load up the stock networks and sell the RF-7's. ---------------- Imperfectcircle, you should jump on this offer!! Dean just did the crossovers on my KLF-20's and I am major league impressed. Also, add me to the list on suggesting the Rotel. Good luck with whatever you decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperfectcircle25 Posted June 18, 2005 Author Share Posted June 18, 2005 I was at a few dealers today and im hitting a few more tommorow, If I dont end up buying something Ill consider Deans offer. I dont think the problem is my amp, 40 watts is plenty for a 101db/watt speaker and my amp can deal with the 2.8ohms no problem, I contacted the designer and he says 2ohms is no problem, the amp could rive a 2ohm nominal impeadance with no problem so a little dip down to 2,8 isnt gonna bother it one bit. Also I did borrow a few amps from my dealer including a Bryston 4stt and a Musical Fidelity A5 which both put out over 150 watts per channel, the only real differance I heard was the bass was better. So its not the power thats the issue. I think it might just be that i heard much more expensive and better speakers and now im just not happy with the Klipschs anymore after whearing what the really really good speakers can do. Dont get me wrong Im a Klipsch guy all the way, but they are not perfect and there are better speakers out there. maybe i just finally found a speaker thats better than the klispch's, it is possible isnt it? Thansk again guys Happy Listening! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 ---------------- maybe i just finally found a speaker thats better than the klispch's, it is possible isnt it? Thansk again guys Happy Listening! ---------------- Of course. This is supposed to be fun, it is our hobby. If you found something that is that much better, go for it! Your ears are the thing that matters. Maybe the RF7 can be tweaked to be where you want it, maybe not. But you are saying that you found a speaker that needs no tweaks to make it perform the way you want it. No guessing, no tweaks, no "If I change this, then maybe change that.." I am being totally sincere here, buy the other speakers because you will not be happy until you have a pair. You will always be second guessing until you have a pair. I knew that I would always long for K Horns if I did not start there, so that is what I bought. I have a pair of Magneplanars and really like them. They do not have the "big" sound of the K Horns, but they were 1/10th the price too. I think that they are great speakers and they are not made by Klipsch. I also am swapping JBL Baby cheeks into my K Horns, because its a hobby and I think they sound better than the stock tweeters (same goes for my ALK's). Good luck to you and ENJOY THIS HOBBY!! If you can take the abuse, post a review of the difference in your system and in your listening room here. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 ---------------- On 6/18/2005 10:01:54 AM leok wrote: Spkrdctr, Just a possible view of creating a crossover that attenuates the hf on the RF-7 (I don't know Dean's thoughts on this): The speaker is not what I would call bright. I'm not sure dumbing down the speaker is the answer. Leo ---------------- This is my point exactly. The speaker is not being called bright by you. It is being called bright by the owner. With the system the owners have, they are finding it way too bright, so altering the frequency response levels may easily fix speakers for the owners that want a much warmer sound. Why let them leave the Klipsch fold if that is all it takes to make them happy Klipsch owners for life? Too many people are teling the owners what they think is how the owner should respond. The owners are responding and saying they are too bright. So, to those owners, they are too bright. End of story. They might like an option to change the speakers. Dean can come up with that option and serve the market. If Dean does not do it, I'm sure a competitor can be talked into offering that option. I think with Deans reputation on these boards, his mod would be appreciated, and probably gain acceptance quite easily, by the owners who want that warmer $15,000pr speaker sound. I say, what the heck, give it a try! Worst case, Dean risks being successful. Not bad in my book..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 I think it's a great idea Spkdctr, it would be giving someone what "they" want. I'm very content with Deans work but does Popbumpers work sound any different for the 7's?...curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franczyk Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 Not to change the subject, but isn't the Forte one of the most flat klipsch speakers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 Spkrdctr, I appreciate what you are saying. The point I was making was more academic than a practical or even an effective solution. Maybe speaker manufacturers could install a switch in their crossovers (some used to have potentiometers) providing a "warm" setting for harsher environments, thereby widening their range of acceptability and creating a built-in upgrade path. As users improve their electronics they can then take advantage of the full capabilities of the speakers at the flip of a switch. Maybe Dean would consider this. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 ---------------- On 6/19/2005 8:58:33 AM leok wrote: Spkrdctr, Maybe speaker manufacturers could install a switch in their crossovers (some used to have potentiometers) providing a "warm" setting for harsher environments, thereby widening their range of acceptability and creating a built-in upgrade path. As users improve their electronics they can then take advantage of the full capabilities of the speakers at the flip of a switch. Maybe Dean would consider this. Leo ---------------- Leo, I remember the old potentiometers on the speakers. I think you are on the right track. It would be nice if the Premier Series speakers offered something like that. I think we are all in agreement on what Dean should do, problem is we are not Dean. Oh well...I always enjoy telling soemone else what to do, rather than me being told what to do! Hey, I think I was born to be the boss, I take to watching other people work quite naturally...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 That level of attenuation shouldn't be done through the network, but with a quality Equalizer. I think if someone doesn't like the live, up front and realistic sound of horn driven loudspeakers, they should probably buy different speakers. To, me a "crossover upgrade" for the most part constitutes the use of higher quality parts in the network which appear to behave better when put under a load. There is a difference between cleaning things up and doing a complete revoice of the speaker -- which one can't really do unless they have access to a host of instrumentation, as well as the necessary skill-set to accompish the task -- of which I have neither. I'm a good cook, but I'm not a master chef. A good cook knows to start with the best ingredients, but to stick to the recipe. This stuff is hideously complex, and small changes in values usually make large changes in the behavior of the circuit. The best course is the measure the original parts to see how the manufacturer is working with the tolerances, and follow suit. Now, there are exceptions to this, and the RF-7 is one of them. I tweak one resistor value, but the mod wasn't developed by me, but by Leo who is both an engineer and critcial listener -- and I only do the mod because I implemented it in my own RF-7's, and heard the improvement for myself. The RF-7 needs just a little help, and Leo's tweak does that. It's a great speaker, and the last thing I want to do is emasculate the horn by throwing a blanket over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 I think if someone doesn't like the live, up front and realistic sound of horn driven loudspeakers, they should probably buy different speakers. --- Best point yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 I haven't done one pair of RF-7 networks for someone who later came back and said, "I sure wish you could take those highs down more." People typically buy them because they like the sound of the top to begin with. After the mod/upgrade, the comments I receive are always pretty much the same -- that the resulting sound is exactly what they had hoped for. I hate those pots, I refuse to use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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