Unhappy with RF-7's

[timbley]

Using an active crossover and Behringer Equalizer with the RF-7 allowed me to tailor it's sound to a great degree. I made a much mellower speaker out of it, although a lot of that had to do with extending the high frequency response and improving the blending with the mid-woofers, which didn't necc. mean turning the horn down 5 or 6db. It could actually sound harsher and yet dead and muffled at the same time if the horn was turned down to much. It became sweeter if I turned it into a 3 way, with the upper 10" midwoofer acting as a midrange, and the lower covering the bass. The bass got pretty lousy in this configuration, as you can imagine. But the harshenss all but disappeared in the mids and highs. I really think pushing a 10" driver up to 2200, and having two of them cover the midrange at the same time is a bigger portion of the speaker's unique sound, which some people find less than satisfying. The horn's rough response also adds to it.

Now my RF-7s are back to original stock configuration. My first impression of listening to them like this again is that they sound quaint, like an olde tyme radio. They're brighter, a little microphonic, and the soundstage is almost completely flattened. I guess the room corrections I was making were helping quite a bit. Also my girfriend took down the heavy curtains I had bought for room treatment. She said they were blocking the light. Maybe so, but they also really helped. The imaging is off to one side again, toward my right ear, which is now facing a big sliding glass door with no real curtains on it.

Another thing I noticed about the RF-7 is that by having both of those 10" drivers cover up to 2200, it creates more immediate floor reflections of the midrange. This seems to hamper imaging and make the room setup more critical. If I eliminated the midrange from the lower driver, the imaging stabilized.

Earlier it was said that the room is as important as the speaker, and I whole heartedly agree. I've noticed a similar effect from several completely different speakers in my front room. Moved to other rooms or other people's houses, those speakers have always improved. I just moved a pair of RadioShack RCA Linaeum bookshelf speakers to my bedroom. They sound wonderful in there. So I move them back to the front room - not so good. Then I start switching between them and the stock RF-7s. After 10 minutes I absolutely hate both speakers - but that's another subject entirely, confusing the hell out of your ears by rapid switching. To make matters worse, I tried to use the RF-7s to cover the bass and the Linaeums the mids and highs. I started switching the crossover frequency on the fly, moving it all over the place, as high as 9K and as low as 80HZ. My ears were spinning on the sides of my head. These speakers have entirely different presentations and do not play together at all. But it taught me that each speaker relies on a certain illusion to convince us that what we're hearing from it is natural enough to pass our critical mind. When put right next to eachother, it's obvious that neither of them have go it right. They point out eachother's flaws. Cohesiveness comes from similarity of error throughout the audio spectrum.

That's enough of my rambling.

[Deang]

"I'm very content with Deans work but does Popbumpers work sound any different for the 7's?"

Chris' K-stack works with the Forte, Forte II, Chorus, Chorus II, KLF 20, 30, and I think the Heritage Type B networks. The new PCB's won't work for any of the Reference Series speakers. I had wanted to see if he could have some made up for the RF-7's, but the Reference speakers are current production, and I just decided that would be a no-no. There is also the problem of finding suitable high quality inductors for the tweeter circuit. The two inductors have rather high resistance, and this is used to tune the Q of the tweeter circuit -- so they shouldn't be messed with. This leaves the steel laminate type for the low pass section. It's actually a decent part to begin with, and early on I was replacing it with an air core which fits easily on the stock boards. I quit doing it after being convinced it wasn't making any audible difference. In short, there was no real advantage to having the new PCBs built up, and would only have resulted in Trey smacking me upside the head with a 2x4.

The K-stack fills a nice gap. It allows for a full blown upgrade if one chooses. There are high quality suitable replacements for the tweeter inductors, and plenty of room to "do it all" -- even a nice upgrade to the stock autotransformer, which is pretty cool. The quality of the parts and work is equivelant to what I do with the Heritage boards, and if one can afford the extra cash layout -- they should go for it. For once I can actually claim to do something for less money, but it ain't apples to apples.

[leok]

C'mon Dean. you could include a disclaimer by calling the settings "Marshmallow" and "Speaker." .. just kidding.

I have a lot of respect for Dean and his success in providing crossovers that are of top quality and give customers what they want (often giving them a little extra in a surprise lesson in audio and build quality). If Dean is successful in raising the bar rather than letting his customers settle for less, I find that preferable. He's literally educating his market.

Sometimes I wonder if folks on this site think I'm a snob because I listen to classical chamber music using amps with no tone controls in which I literally count and minimize gain stages. But it doesn't take much of a shift in position and suddenly I'm on the low quality side of a discussion. I'm impressed.

Leo

[msst]

I'm not understanding the hot top on the highs that people complain about and having to do the crossover change of bringing the the top down some to tame the RF-7's. I do not have this probelm at all with my setup. I admit I am running an expensive high-end setup but I guess to understand why these people are talking about, I would have to put something less quality to hear possibly what they are getting?? I don't know but things are very smooth here and I wouldn't want to bring the top down any and compromise on the dynamics in that area, even if slightly, since I don't have any thing near on the ears as others say they are getting!

Possibly for those who run very smooth quality setups would not need such modification, for those who have the highs too hot to handle on their setups, might be a cheaper solution to solve it?? Really makes one wonder! I feel very fortunate not to have any of these problems with my setup after reading all these post here!

imperfectcircle25, I've heard many times that Bryston's aren't a good choice with Klipsch, brings them towards the colder bright side. Just remember, no speaker is going to be perfect. If you want to pay more to get more, you surely can but the Klipsch RF-7's give you a lot for you money and it's something that is very easy to settle on for the big performance you get for the price/quality. If you feel you can't be settled because you need that 1% to 5% push more and won't be satified until you achive that, than you will have to spend a bit more. It's all what you really want to do, to make you happy in the end.

I listened to many more expensive speakers and even though I was willing to pay more, I did overall like the sound of the Klipsch RF-7's than what I heard offered out there for much more, it was very easy to keep coming back to the RF-7's and really liking them for myself.

Klipsch are well known to be forward speakers and for some, they feel that is bright for them, this may be how you feel too. What is great about Klipsch is the forward sound you get but to some, they don't feel that is the great part! I know a lady who has some very expensive speakers and to me, it sounds like a blanket is over them (lifeless), I don't like them at all but she loves them. She hates my RF-7's and told me I need to stick a sock in them so they won't be so revealing, it irritates her. Just goes to show you how different someone likes what you like.

I'm getting very pleasing results with my RF-7's and I couldn't be happier. Every time I am out looking and listening during my off times to other systems and speakers, I go away very happy with what I have at home! My girl friend loves the RF-7's too and hasn't found anything she likes better and told me not to get any ideas that they are staying! I very much agree.

I also wanted to mention imperfectcircle25 that you should check the back ports on the RF-7 and make sure the foam is not blocking the ports, if so push it back into place. If this happens, it can greatly affect the sound, as I found out when it happened to me, and also make sure all drivers are working.

[Speedball]

Thanks for the answer Mr. D....

Hi Msst,

I was about to ask what amp you are using but found out it is 400 watts of Mark Levinson.

I was also thinking all along if the 7's were hooked to some excellent S.S. amplification things could sound a bit smoother.

If the 7's had a marshmallow setting they would sound better with my cheap reciever.

[timbley]

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On 6/19/2005 4:07:40 PM msst wrote:

I'm not understanding the hot top on the highs that people complain about and having to do the crossover change of bringing the the top down some to tame the RF-7's. I do not have this probelm at all with my setup.

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It could just be that your room acoustics go very well with the RF-7s.

[krispykoilz]

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On 6/18/2005 8:18:20 PM imperfectcircle25 wrote:

I was at a few dealers today and im hitting a few more tommorow, If I dont end up buying something Ill consider Deans offer. I dont think the problem is my amp, 40 watts is plenty for a 101db/watt speaker and my amp can deal with the 2.8ohms no problem, I contacted the designer and he says 2ohms is no problem, the amp could rive a 2ohm nominal impeadance with no problem so a little dip down to 2,8 isnt gonna bother it one bit. Also I did borrow a few amps from my dealer including a Bryston 4stt and a Musical Fidelity A5 which both put out over 150 watts per channel, the only real differance I heard was the bass was better. So its not the power thats the issue. I think it might just be that i heard much more expensive and better speakers and now im just not happy with the Klipschs anymore after whearing what the really really good speakers can do. Dont get me wrong Im a Klipsch guy all the way, but they are not perfect and there are better speakers out there. maybe i just finally found a speaker thats better than the klispch's, it is possible isnt it? Thansk again guys

Happy Listening!

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Those are two very good amps you tried, I haven't heard the newer Musical Fidelity but have heard an older lower powered one with the origional Chorus, impressive indeed. The Bryston 4BSST is awesome, a buddy of mine has a couple of them. I have an older 4BNRB model and I like it very much. One thing I tried about 10 years ago when I was playing with speaker wire is I bought some 8 gauge car audio power wire. I bought black and red and twisted them together ( it's supposed to cancel/lessen the electromagnetic field generated/produced between the wire) and just wrapped electrical tape on the ends to keep them from unwinding. I then crimped and soldered C connectors on the ends using the rubber/plastic coverings that matched the wire to cover the connections. These cables had the effect of making the Chorus II's sounding like the highs were rolled off. I think what was actually happening was the bass was attentuated making it sound like there were less highs. Not sure why they did this maybe something to do with capacitance? Perhaps someone with more electrical experience could explain why it did this. I ended up switching back to 10 gauge because to me I liked the sound better. I just switched the 12 gauge to the 8 gauge on my center that I'm using right now to see if the same effect would happen on a smaller speaker. It is a KG4.5 and I'm pretty sure I'm hearing the same effect, it's harder to tell because the Chorus II's are playing. It's a very inexpensive tweak if you wanted to try it, just make sure your equipment dealer gives you a good deal on the wire.

HTH

[imperfectcircle25]

MSST I think you hit the nail on the head, everyone is didfferant, some like you like the bright in your face sound and others like your gurl like a warmer laid back sound, and some like me like it somewhere in the middle:) Hows the Levinson stuff sound with the RF-7's, I think your the first person Ive seen with Levinson stuff with Klipsch, kind of an odd combo using such expensive amps with such inexpensive speakers?? I know price doent mean much but a $10000 amp with $1500 speakers seems a little crazy to me, I am a strong believer in system balance and synergy but thats just my 2 cents nothing worng with that setup just seems kind of like a little bit of a waste of money, I doubt the Rf-7's are letting the Levinson stuff reach thier full potential?? Did you buy the stuff new or did you get a good deal on ebay or audiogon, thats a differant story I guess. Some of the Levinson stuff actually inst to expensive second hand, I actually almost bought a 383 integrated a while back it was such a good price too but the sound just wasnt my style. Im starting to think that I really like the "British sound" they seem to have a little differant way of thinking when it comes to hifi, just check out Naim for example, very quirky company but they are all about the music. Anyways I have two speakers I am trying to decide on right now and I absolutely love both(epos ES30, Neat Vito) both are not made anymore but I can get a really good deal on left over models that my dealer has right now, both sold for around $5k new and hes gonna let his final demo pairs go for almost half price just to get rid of them to make room for thier new products. My problem is which one to buy, they both look, sound and cost almost the same, its a really hard decision! The designer of my amplifier also reccomends both brands so he didnt make my decision any easier....grrr what to do...??? Thanks for all the help guys, dont worry your not losing me completely i still have my RF-3's which will be set up in the basement, just need to find some inexpensive elctronics to drive them, was thinking a used Marantz cd63e(I had one a while back and it was great for the money) for around $150 and an inexpensive integrated amp, maybe a Jolida, NAD, Creek...ect Thanks again

Frank

[Spkrdctr]

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On 6/21/2005 3:08:37 PM imperfectcircle25 wrote:

I think your the first person Ive seen with Levinson stuff with Klipsch, kind of an odd combo using such expensive amps with such inexpensive speakers?? I know price doent mean much but a $10000 amp with $1500 speakers seems a little crazy to me, I am a strong believer in system balance and synergy but thats just my 2 cents nothing worng with that setup just seems kind of like a little bit of a waste of money, I doubt the Rf-7's are letting the Levinson stuff reach thier full potential?? Frank

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Frank,

I have to disagree with you here. You have been victimized by marketing hype. The RF-7s will sing with really great electronics. The price of the speakers does not matter all that much. Usually it is how the buyer likes that certain companies voicing of the speakers. You can also drive them with cheap equipment and still have them sound good. I have listened to speakers and I always notice the only difference between a Klipsch and others costing far more, is the others have the band in or behind the wall and Klipsch is right there between the speakers in front of you. The extreme dollar speakers may sound better but usually don't. If you like them great, but never think a low priced speaker can't sound like it costs ten times more. I have heard older inexpensive bookshelf Sony speakers that rival Legacy bookshelfs! A high price should always be the least considered part of a speaker purchase.

In the end, if you like it, buy it!

[MrMcGoo]

I run two Sunfire Signature amps, a 2 channel and a 5 channel. They have improved the performance of great speakers and let them be all they can be.

It's the 2.8 ohm minimum impedance and the speaker quality that crys out for good amps, not the cost of the speakers. It's the woofer section that's usually between 3 and 4 ohms that demands good amplification. This is very basic electronics.

The RF-7s need an amp that can double the current from 8 to 4 ohms and double again to 2 ohms. If you do not want to invest in a tube amp with 4 or 2 ohm taps or a solid state amp that can carry the load, go with the RF-35s or some other speaker that is an easier load.

Bill

[Frzninvt]

A really good quality SS amp should be able to handle 1 ohm loads with ease! However I don't there are too many out there anymore.

Mine can handle anything any speaker could throw at them down to crazy 0.1 ohm loads if necessary. The things are pretty sick.

Anyhow if you are caught up on price then I think I figured out your problem the Klipsch aren't expensive enough for you. If you are equating $$$ to performance then you need to rethink your philosophy because it isn't always the case.

Klipsch isn't a fancy enough name anyway right?

[Fish]

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On 6/21/2005 3:08:37 PM imperfectcircle25 wrote:

Levinson stuff with Klipsch, kind of an odd combo using such expensive amps with such inexpensive speakers?? I know price doent mean much but a $10000 amp with $1500 speakers seems a little crazy to me, I am a strong believer in system balance and synergy but thats just my 2 cents nothing worng with that setup just seems kind of like a little bit of a waste of money, I doubt the Rf-7's are letting the Levinson stuff reach thier full potential??

Odd,I think that would be a fantastic combo.

Anyways I have two speakers I am trying to decide on right now and I absolutely love both(epos ES30, Neat Vito) both are not made anymore but I can get a really good deal on left over models that my dealer has right now, both sold for around $5k new and hes gonna let his final demo pairs go for almost half price just to get rid of them to make room for thier new products.

Odd you would have to 50% discount such wonderful speakers just to "get rid of them"

The designer of my amplifier also reccomends both brands so he didnt make my decision any easier....grrr what to do...???

For starters I would never let an "amp designer" tell me which speakers to use,or anyone else for that matter.

All that aside,you may not like the Klipsch sound and thats fine,we understand.Good luck in your search.

[skonopa]

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On 6/21/2005 3:08:37 PM imperfectcircle25 wrote:

Hows the Levinson stuff sound with the RF-7's, I think your the first person Ive seen with Levinson stuff with Klipsch, kind of an odd combo using such expensive amps with such inexpensive speakers?? I know price doent mean much but a $10000 amp with $1500 speakers seems a little crazy to me, I am a strong believer in system balance and synergy but thats just my 2 cents nothing worng with that setup just seems kind of like a little bit of a waste of money, I doubt the Rf-7's are letting the Levinson stuff reach thier full potential??

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I also disagree with this idea. So, I should not be driving this "cheap $1,500 speakers" with my $3,500 B&K amp? I guess I should start looking for something in the $5,000 to $8,000 range? To be honost, I could not be happier with this setup. I don't find it "hot on top" at all. I've tried listening to some of those more expensive speakers with this same amp, such as a $5,000/pair Martin-Logans. I found I just much more prefer the Klipsch RF-7s, with its incredible clarity and dynamics. I found the music to be extremely involving on this setup. There has been numourus times when I wanted to jump up and jam out some serious air-guitar right in front of my stereo. When listening to classical pieces, I've often wanted to get up and "conduct the orchestra" myself! And in some instances, I've had some music literally move me to tears. It was just that "real" and it just triggered something emotionally inside me.

However, I do believe that a system has to have balance and synergy myself, but it has nothing to do with price. (although I can agree with something such as driving an $80,000 pair of Grand Utopias with a cheap $200 Sony Reciever, or driving a Bose Acousticrap 15 setup with a Krell amp, may seem a bit ridiculous. But hey, if somebody doing such a thing (although I cannot imagine who would, accept for maybe as a crazy experiment) is happy with the results, what am I to say it is "wrong"?). I believe the synergy and balance is finding a good combination of components that work well together in terms of sound, i.e., does one brand of amp sound to "bright" with these speakers? To "dark", to {fill in your favorite adjective}? Once you find that right combination - ahh, audio bliss! I found that the B&K worked very well with the Klipsch in my room, for my particular listening habits. The B&K is certainly not the most expensive amp, but it certainly was not "cheap" either.

It just sounds like you have not found that "synergy" yet with your system. If you just simply don't like the sound of the RF-7s, no sweat off my back. I am still going to enjoy mine just as much as I've enjoyed them for the past 3 years. There are reasons why there are all those other brands out there. I guess the only solution to your particular delimma as to which speaker to get is to see if that guy will let you take both home and try them out, making sure he'll let you return the ones you don't want.

I'll be curious as to what you do end up with (or even if you, in the end, do decide to stick with the RF-7s).

[nicholtl]

Seriously. I have a $45K system with RF7's. And I'm not swapping them out for anything. Imperfect Circle, I think you just need to find better gear before your RF7's sing and your circle becomes perfect.

[Piranha]

Wow Nick! I gotta hear that rig of yours sometime. Maybe even try out some of your meds? I am sure it must blow doors on my measly $6K setup.

[nicholtl]

My meds, LOL!!!

I'M ON THEM RIGHT NOW!!!

[Deang]

I'm annoyed. I've compared RF-7's to some awfully expensive stuff, and it's a strain to find anything that keeps up with them.

Better living through chemistry.

[Speedball]

The 7's are very revealing of components used with them and I suspect his amp is the culprit no matter how good the little integrated is...

[LarryC]

I've never outrun the musical and sonic qualities of my Klipsch's by getting better amplifiers. They only make my speakers sound better. Skonopa nailed it with his "synergy" description.

Larry

[meuge]

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On 6/22/2005 10:45:26 AM LarryC wrote:

I've never outrun the musical and sonic qualities of my Klipsch's by getting better amplifiers. They only make my speakers sound better. Skonopa nailed it with his "synergy" description.

Larry

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I have a measly set of RF-3IIs and I haven't outrun their ability to improve with better amplification either.

I just got a B&K EX4420 200WPC amp and my $500 speakers sound even larger, more palpable and alive.

I dream of the day when I can walk in to see a pair of RF-7s... but alas - that day is not going to be soon, since I can allow myself only small upgrades for now.