Is the "best" center channel speaker -NO- center channel speaker?

[jdm56]

While pondering my options for center speaker placement with various possible TV types (front projection / rear projection CRT or micro display / plasma), it seems EVERYTHING except front projection w/ a perforated screen involves audio comprimises I don't want to make.

I'm wondering if the center speaker isn't a grossly over-sold commodity. Even if I set on one end of the couch or the other, using dpl-II keeps most on-screen dialogue and sounds centered very well, even with just two front speakers. So why bother when the stereo pair form a central image that is perfectly timbre-matched and the same height as the left -right images? Plus, I hate the looks of a big ol' speaker on top of a TV.

Anybody share my concerns? Anybody getting by w/o a center for video?

[colterphoto1]

I personally wouldn't dream of it. Even a very close timbre-match give better localization than no centre. I use KLF-C7 with Cornwalls and am very pleased. It's not grossly huge. If your centre speaker seems oversized, perhaps you're just too close to it? I know a member with a split industrial LS as center, but he's like 17 feet away and it's hidden behind a scrim cloth under the big screen, so it's a 24x36 speaker that's virtually invisible.

This is where we get inventive. Please describe your setup and what you're wanting to accomplish. I'll be there's a way to squeeze a box in there somewhere. Nobody's screen is THAT huge.

Michael

[Frzninvt]

Don't you do any reading? The center channel provides 80-85% of the information in DVD soundtracks to go without one would just plain be assinine. Suck it up and get the matching one for the job and find a place to put it.

[Speedball]

I have thought long and hard about having a 3 or 5 or 7 channel setup but the imaging of my two channel is the best. No, the voices and sounds don't bounce around the room behind me like surround sound with multiple speakers but the invisible wall of voices music and any other sounds coming from that disc is most enjoyable. Being able to localize the speakers coming from all around me seems to be more of a distraction than anything.

I am quite content and any upgrades will be components capable of an even better two channel experience. I have not tried a center BUT lately I've been thinking about it.

[modestm]

Don't you do any reading? The center

channel provides 80-85% of the information in DVD soundtracks to go

without one would just plain be assinine. Suck it up and get the

matching one for the job and find a place to put it.

Yea true... but it doesn't mean if he doesnt have a center channel that

he's missing out 80-85% of the soundtrack. IMO if your fronts image

well and the center info stays in the center regardless which side of

the couch

you sit on (which i find impressive)... then a center channel might

not be *needed.

What speakers do you own?

If you can get it locally...you can always buy one and see if it adds anything to your system. Return it if it doesn't.

[Born2RockU]

Don't you do any reading? The center channel provides 80-85% of the information in DVD soundtracks to go without one would just plain be assinine. Suck it up and get the matching one for the job and find a place to put it.

I could not live without the center channel. Don't skimp when it comes to this important channel speaker, either.

[j-malotky]

jdm

For HT, You need a center. Phantom Centers just don't cut it.

I've posted this many time, but IMO feel very strong about it.. I

would much rather listen to a nice 2CH sterio setup than an underdone

mismatched 5.1 HT for my home movie experiance.

JM

[t-man]

Here's a must-read classic thread. I suggest all who posted here read it carefully.

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=13229&forumID=69&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={D3EBD9E0-2CEB-4743-9CE9-7C843153BC28}

[J.4knee]

While pondering my options for center speaker placement with various possible TV types (front projection / rear projection CRT or micro display / plasma), it seems EVERYTHING except front projection w/ a perforated screen involves audio comprimises I don't want to make.

I'm wondering if the center speaker isn't a grossly over-sold commodity. Even if I set on one end of the couch or the other, using dpl-II keeps most on-screen dialogue and sounds centered very well, even with just two front speakers. So why bother when the stereo pair form a central image that is perfectly timbre-matched and the same height as the left -right images? Plus, I hate the looks of a big ol' speaker on top of a TV.

Anybody share my concerns? Anybody getting by w/o a center for video?

Get youself a properly matched center channel speaker and you will be able to answer this yourself. I resisted for a long time but it is an essential speaker. In a HT perhaps the most important, it needs to be timbre matched to allow for a seemless pan accross the front. Multichannel imaging is simply not the same without it.

[toddvj]

I think another important point that we are missing here is that, without a Center Channel, you will find yourself fiddling with the volume control a lot more than you would with one.

Anytime the dialog is quiet, you have to turn up the volume, then when there is a loud action sequence, you have to turn it down, or it's too loud.

[jdm56]

Well, once upon a time I was a strong believer in the need for a center channel speaker. And I still would have no doubts if it wasn't for the fact the center speaker and the video display ("TV" to normal people[]) both want to inhabit the exact same space at the exact same time. And if I remember enough physics, that isn't possible with solids, so...

What gives? Either one must compromise the placement of the video or of the center speaker, or both! Plasmas and CRT's seem to give the most leeway regarding vertical placement, but most rear projectors of any kind almost demand that your eyeballs be dead-centered on the screen, to look their best (don't they?), which shoves the center speaker too high or too low, assuming your left and right main's tweeters are at ear level.

Trouble is, the big-screen video values, CRT rear projectors, are the least friendly to center channels. They have to go up on top. The next best video value, front projectors, demand either a perforated screen (not a bad option) or a high-mounted screen to accomodate the center speaker. I don't know how critical viewing height is with those.

So you can see how a person might decide the old "phantom center" might not be too bad a way to go!

[colterphoto1]

Nope, not buying it. C'mon, just buy the correct center speaker for your setup and place above or below the set. So long as it's angled toward the listener's ear, I've seen em 3 feet above or below the mains and still sound okay.

Additionally, CRT rear projectors are imho, the worst video alternative. I've got a fairly massive sound system and use a 35" direct view tube set. Why? Because it looks better, is brighter, more contrast, etc than rear projection. If you insist on a rear projector set, there's plenty of guys with a KLFC7 or RC7 on top that love the sound.

I'll be moving to front projection soon though. As far as projection sets, they usually are fairly high on the wall, as modern theatre seating reclines you back pretty far. With a pretty large screen, mounted near the ceiling, there's plenty of room for a vertical Cornwall, split LaScala, or numerous other center boxes under the screen. You need not go to the perforated set unless you're sitting ridiculously close to the screen. Screen size, distance, and center postion are closely related.

Here's the bottom line on center speakers. You cannot live without one. Phantom is for folks who haven't bought the center speaker, yet. You cannot have proper soundstaging for HT without it. Period. Really. I'm not kidding this time. Just do it. I mean, there's like hundreds of HT systems from guys on this Forum, maybe a handful don't have center speakers, yet. So just buy one. Okay?

Michael

[DrWho]

Well I wrote this response on Friday when the server crashed, but managed to save to a .txt file (so sorry if it seems a bit oblivious)
______________________________
Well Bell Labs (pretty much the only place researching this stuff) claims you need a center channel, even for 2-channel music listening....

In regards to surround sound they have concluded that 7 channel is the absolute minimum in order to achieve a true surround experience.

All this research was all done many many years ago...and it's not like Bell Labs had any profit to gain from such conclusions either. (Heck, surround sound didn't even exist back in the day).

In regards to the center channel specifically....it really is physically impossible to maintain a 'perfect' central image without a speaker in that location. Stereo speakers can certainly do a good job emulating it, but I would totally choose a non-timbre matched center over not having one altogether. How low to the floor will your screen be? I can't imagine the bottom of the screen being any lower than 3 or 4 feet....it would just be akward otherwise. And this leaves plently of room for a speaker tilted up under the screen, which really wouldn't be a huge acoustical compromise. Our ears are also far far less sensitive to differences in height than they are differences in lateral position.

[Petrol]

...but most rear projectors of any kind almost demand that your eyeballs be dead-centered on the screen, to look their best (don't they?)

No. While I would preffer to be dead-center, sitting anywhere within 15-30 degrees either side and the picture is still fine...

...which shoves the center speaker too high or too low, assuming your left and right main's tweeters are at ear level.

while my center channel tweeter is about 20" lower then my front main tweeters, the simple 'tilting' of the speaker aims the speaker directly at what would be 'dead-center' of the main speaker's tweeter convergent point... sounds great to me...

Just for grins, I tried the old "phantom center" setting and very quickly nixed that notion!

[D-MAN]

Multi-channel REQUIRES a center channel speaker.

DVD soundtracks are specifically engineered for one. Most of the dialog occurs SOLELY on the center channel.

DM

[alkemyst]

I have Quartets, was doing the Phantom center thing (Yamaha RX-V1050 so my reciever is no longer the best nor near the best, however; it was at one time) the vocals got muddy with the rest of the mix. I couldn't find a volume level I could hear what was spoken without shaking the room

Added an Academy...things are MUCH better now

[jdm56]

There seems to be pretty strong feeling (?) running in favor of a center speaker.

I don't know about the notion that a center makes two-channel stereo sound better, though. Unless the mains are really spread out, I don't see how it would. On the other hand, if using a center speaker allows you to spread out the l & r further, that could be a good thing.

I'm sure one doesn't miss anything by not using a center. After all, as long as you have your receiver or processor's set-up correct, the center channel information is just going to get sent to the l&r instead. The worst thing is, people in the cheap seats won't hear a perfectly centered image. And true, the level might be a bit lower since you wouldn't be able to bring it up independently of the left and right channels. --All valid points.

I'll probably keep using one, regardless of what kind of video display I end up with. Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts.

[edwinr]

My home theatre is purely 2 channel at the moment. I'm quite happy with it, but I do admit that some dialogue in certain movies is difficult to understand. I doubt that with 2 channel HT you actually lose information but obviously the movie is mixed for multi channel, so I can see merit in having a suitable centre channel with matching surrounds to fully appreciate the efforts of the sound technician. Dialogue should be easier to follow in this case.

Ideally, the centre channel should be timbre matched - or so I'm led to believe. But I've found that with movies, the requirement is less stringent than with music. Perhaps with Heritage main speakers, a Reference series centre would work quite okay for those that don't want a room dominated by speakers. And for surrounds, if Heresys weren't an option, why not a Reference series model?

[JJkizak]

With K-horns in the corners and Corwall in the center with subwoofer it's a done deal. There is no comparison unless your speakers are about 6 feet apart which then even fouls up the stereo image. Most television broadcasts in 5.1 use the center channel exclusively for commercials and announcing. The center channel is everything.

JJK

[Zen Traveler]

I agree a center channel is a must for 5.1 material. That being said, I was EXTREMELY surprised when after listening to my Roger Waters "In the Flesh-Live" DVD at least 50 times, that there was no center channel recorded. I noticed this when I walked in front of my TV and realized nothing was coming out of my RC-7. I switched to another source--sound out of the center. I then called a friend who owns the DVD and he said he was sure there was a center channel in the mix. Well...until he played it again. []