picky Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 It isn't often that I vent on this forum. It's not really my style, but knowing that this issue will eventually affect many of you and not just myself, I feel a bit compelled to express my disappointment and anger with the movie and consumer electronics industries here. I am also interested to hear your feelings on this subject as well. {Sorry for the long post} What's at stake here is some of the most expensive equipment in my recently-completed home theater. Namely my Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi receiver and my Sharp XV-Z9000U projector. Together, they represent an investment of $12,000. They are now 3 years old. In four months, they will both be OBSOLETE. Why? Some of you already know the answer: HDMI Neither device has an HDMI input. Instead, they have Component Video inputs. Up till now, we have been enjoying our Hi-Def cable via our component video inputs. We have also enjoyed watching Hi-Def movies on our JVC HM-DH30000U D-VHS digital videotape recorder. The Consumer Electronics Show is currently under way in Las Vegas this week. Much information has been flowing out of this show; most of the news is wonderfully exciting. But, some of it is terribly disappointing. It was announced this week that the new Hi-Def DVD format (DVD-HD) has solidified their decision NOT to release any of their new DVD-HD players, when they come out this spring, with component video outputs that will allow viewing of the Hi-Def version of the disc. Hi-Def may be viewed only via the HDMI or DVI jacks. Component Video jacks will allow only Standard definition viewing. It was further announced that the other Hi-Def DVD format (Blu-Ray Laser) has not yet made up it's mind about component video jacks. Therefore, their may be a glimmer of hope. But for the most part, it means that early adopters of High Definition, which includes myself, will be unable to view the new Hi-Def DVD formats in high definition. Some of you may be asking who is driving this plugging of the "Analog Hole"? It's the Movie companies. In an effort to put an end to video piracy, the movie companies are insisting that home electronics manufacturers adopt the digital-only output formats of DVI or HDMI because they both carry the ability to utilize a higher level of copyright protection thereby preventing the pirating of DVDs. Component video jacks do not guard DVDs from being copied. I do not blame the movie companies for wanting to put an end to piracy and protect their properties. However, it was decided years ago and several different times in the supreme court that we has individuals are allowed to copy music and movies that we buy to use for our own purposes. What the movie giants have done here instead is to create a situation that the electronics industry has been fighting to keep from happened as it did in years past: It renders the new machines non-backward compatible! Yes, they will still be able to play older DVDs and CDs, but they will not be playable on machines lacking HDMI or DVI jacks even if they are HDTV-approved equipment. Besides, everyone knows, six months after it is released, the hackers will have a crack for HDMI anyway. So who are they really hurting? Law-bidding consumers. I have spoken to the advanced team at Pioneer and am waiting to hear from the same at Sharp. Pioneer's team currently has no plans to formulate a fix or to develop a conversion device it's customers may purchase to remedy the situation. And they told me this knowing that their current $4,000 flagship receiver that they are selling, the VSX-59TXi, is NOT HDMI-Compliant either! Now, I do not want to blame Pioneer here, as I happen to love the receiver I have from them currently. But, I suspect there will be a litany of people in the same boat as I, regardless of what brands they own. And most of them don't even know it yet! This could affect several million people. I am sure many of you have known about this for quite some time and have wisely avoided buying any equipment for that reason. Well, 3 years ago when I bought my equipment, none of us had even an inkling that this might happen. Had I know then, I too would have held off. My pockets are not deep enough to buy new equipment every three years. So that is why I am upset about this. And I think the industry should provide a work around that we can purchase for a reasonable price. If not, DVD-HD & Blu Ray Laser may be getting off to a much rockier start that they first thought. You can't screw several million customers without someone getting pretty darn pissed about it.-Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Thanks for the post, picky. I'm in the middle of auditioning some high end receivers. The HDMI option wasn't an issue - until now. As I have a HD compatible Panasonic projector, I thought component was all I needed. Obviously not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOOTERDOG Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Picky, Man I understand your feelings on this matter. Thank goodness my pre pro is a couple of years old so when I do upgrade that portion of my system I will make sure its hdmi compliant as it is it only has 2 component inputs. I currently run both hdmi and components into my Infocus 4805 though. The hdmi is from my HD sat receiver and the component is from my upconverter, which everything runs through except the sat reciever. As much as I love my dvd player I am waiting for the new formats. I hope they can get this all straighten out before then. I would almost bet we will see dual format players that play both HD DVD and BlueRay, because I will not buy two players. However, I don't think it will happen until the second generation machines unless someone gets brave. hang in there buddy the world of a/v is only good for 2 things. 1. Pure enjoyment 2. Getting screwed scooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 That really is kind of sorry of them. Fortunately, I bought my 65" Mit 2 years ago and it has the HDMI interface. I would hate to think I had sunk $4k into a unit that would be obsolete soon (much less $12k). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kktvbob Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Plus on top of that two new audio formats. Dolby Digital plus 7.1 and HD Dolby for more than 8 channels. This and the HDMI is why I'm waiting to buy a new pre amp. At lest my tv will take one DVI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 The two new formats are likely to flop until several issues are addressed. The first thing must be a single standard for the high def DVD. Then the video quality issue must be solved without rendering legacy equipment useless. Finally, receivers with 24/96 capability must be allowed to use that capability. There is little likelyhood that these issues will be addressed in a timely manner.Therefore, the best thing to do is to boycott high def formats till a single format wins. By that time, at least some of us will be ready to upgrade audio and/or video processing. Poor sales will get their attention. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted January 12, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 12, 2006 The only thing i have with hdmi is the tv an it's not being used . 7.1 ,8 channels thats going to get a little crazy , that many large speakers if you like heritage. When 7.1 is the standard ,in my case 7 forte ll,s would take up alot of space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkot Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 its worse than you think..... up converting dvd players have been around for a while now and only the first generation players upconvert over component???? now we have 1080p displays that wont accept a 1080p input????? as of yesterday the only way to watch a hi-def source(other than broadcast tv) was to make it yourself, store it on your hard drive and show it to your buddies, over a few beers. now pioneer has released a blue ray dvd burner and if you know someone who also has the new pioneer and a big enough computer to process the data they can also check out your hd stuff. it takes a duel processor chip set! someone needs to come to our rescue! as stated above we cant keep upgrading our equipment just because! some even ground needs to be realized take down the pirates and let the rest of us have our equipment get old and die a usefull life ! ive been fighting the hd thing for a while now check out my web site www.tkohd.com feel my pain??? jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Picky, It remains to be seen how much of an issue HDCP on the HD players is really going to be. There are already devices on the market that will accept HDCP encrypted streams and spit out analog video or decrypted digital. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I'm glad I am running a HTPC ! JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Now you know why I won't buy HD or upgrade my display. These people need to come up with something universal. Otherwise, I'm not playing, and therefore, they do not get my cash. The manufacturers and movie companies have been purely idiotic in this matter. I'll just stick with the old stuff - thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Just more ways for them to make you keep upgrading equipment and spending more money!! By the time they decided on which HD DVD format to use something else well be ready to replace it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 I will wait... I learned from the BetaMAX vs VHS war...... and I will wait to see who wins.... Ya think the electronic manufacturers would learn from their mistakes.... I bought my RPTV without HDMI as I thought iw was unneccessary expense....and there was no picture difference...plus I did not have anything that had HDMI output ...what was it ...4 years ago...DAYUM time flies... I will wait... I am sure someone will make a upscaler or some device that will output over analog.... Or maybe when I decide to buy a HD-DVD....I will have the bug to upgrade my TV to a front projector...and heck while I am at it...build that addition on to house to create a TRUE MAN CAVE Home Theater...so I can stop hear GF whining " TURN it DOWN" "WHY must it THUMP so LOUD" blah blah blah... Picky....Just keep buying what you buy or rent for DVD...they will learn...because it is usually us Early adopters (read buyers) who the manufacturers like since we buy the good stuff...hehehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 I will wait... Picky....Just keep buying what you buy or rent for DVD...they will learn...because it is usually us Early adopters (read buyers) who the manufacturers like since we buy the good stuff...hehehe Yes! That is EXACTLY my point here: The darned electronics manufacturers and movie companies depend directly on US early adopters to help them spread the word and move their new formats along to acceptance by the masses. Yet, WE are the ones directly being hurt by all of this! I know I am not the only one here in disbelief that the industry can be THAT STUPID and not learn a darned thing from their own past experiences (4-Track / 8-Track / Cassette / Quad-4 / BETA / VHS / Laserdisc / DVD-R / DVD+R for examples)? Holy Moly! I like Bill's response (Mr. McGoo) too about suggesting a boycott. Most of you are Spot-on with your replies and thanks for that! I don't know just how well a boycott will accomplish the task. But so long as this disparity exists, I for one, certainly WILL NOT be buying any new DVD-HD, or Blu-Ray Laser disc players or movies! I and I will certainly be sending versions of this post around to every manufacturer I possibly can. The industry has got to realize (and learn) that they cannot bite the hand that feeds it and still prosper from it! -Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomicskiier01 Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Does anybody know if HD-DVD & Blu-Ray players will be able to play standard DVD's? Or will my DVD collection be obsolete with the new format as well? I know that HD-DVD's are going to look and sound great, but it will not be enough to convince me to start replacing all of my DVD's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 Does anybody know if HD-DVD & Blu-Ray players will be able to play standard DVD's? Or will my DVD collection be obsolete with the new format as well? I know that HD-DVD's are going to look and sound great, but it will not be enough to convince me to start replacing all of my DVD's. The answer is YES: your collection is safe! The new Hi-Def level players are backward compatible for old DVDs and CDs. Your collection will not be obsolete. Instead, non (DVI) HDMI-compliant displays and receivers will be obsolete. Unless, Blu-Ray decides at he last minute to allow passage of the hi-def signal to be output via the player's Component Video jacks. Then the non-compliant displays shouldn't be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 I will not replace my DVD collection.... No Way... Too much invested... So whenever I do buy a new HD DVD if I do...it better play my current ones.... Arggggggggggg Sometimes I hate change! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomicskiier01 Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Does anybody know if HD-DVD & Blu-Ray players will be able to play standard DVD's? Or will my DVD collection be obsolete with the new format as well? I know that HD-DVD's are going to look and sound great, but it will not be enough to convince me to start replacing all of my DVD's. The answer is YES: your collection is safe! The new Hi-Def level players are backward compatible for old DVDs and CDs. Your collection will not be obsolete. Instead, non (DVI) HDMI-compliant displays and receivers will be obsolete. Unless, Blu-Ray decides at he last minute to allow passage of the hi-def signal to be output via the player's Component Video jacks. Then the non-compliant displays shouldn't be an issue. That is good to hear. Thank You. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 I agree entirely with your sentiments Picky, but only from a consumer's viewpoint. The problem is that there is a lot of money to be made when a company can come out with a better medium. In the initial stages the consumers never hear anything about the reasearch and development going on and once the first company releases information about a new product, all the other companies that have already spent thousands and thousands of dollars are forced to reveal their products too - it's a dire attempt to regain their already huge investment. Yes, it does screw the early-adopters, but that is also a very known risk when being one of them. It really is like investing in the stock market - sure it sucks when your stock goes down and you lose, but that's the nature of investing. The only difference is that when you are an early adopter, you are investing in the entertainment - sometimes your investment will return the entertainment you seek, other times it won't. Nevertheless, it does suck that the few (those who pirate movies) have to ruin it for the rest of us. But those who are creating the mediums are first and foremost catering to the needs of their direct customers: the people making the movies that don't want their product pirated. There is a solution to the problem, but the same number of 'investors' will be put out by the lack of privacy (it revolves around requiring one to have an internet connection in order to play the movie/music). Also, if there is a sufficiently large customer base with Hi-Def limited to component video, then I have absolutely no doubt whatsover that adapter boxes will make their way onto the market (that convert the digital signal to component). If the demand is there, then there most certainly will be someone at least tyring to fill that niche - heck, if I come across a way to do it, I'll fill that niche myself. For someone dropping $12k on entertainment, another $100 to $200 doesn't seem unreasonable to keep the system up-to-date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 Dr. Who: Coming from an engineering background myself, I totally understand the baking-in of R&D (Research & Development) costs into the final retail price offered to consumers and early adopters of new products. And, that original price-point tends to tail-off as development costs are recovered and saturation begins to take shape. Its a business model used by nearly every industry from drug manufacturing to automotive to consumer electronics. So, from a business standpoint, your statements are quite accurate. But one items goes unmentioned: The one thing missing here is a reward for customer loyalty. Even the auto industry tries to make unique consessions for their return customers. But, it would appear, such is not the case in consumer electronics. Electronics makers have said in the past they they would try harder not to create new products that alienated past customers. I believe, even the Federal Trade Commission has issued warnings to that effect to the electronics manufaturers in the past. But, this situtation seems to be somewhat of a missfire. Perhaps, its because the movie industry is trying to be in the driver's seat? I dunno. There are no easy answers for sure. It's simply hard for me to reckon why an industry would say to its most loyal customers, "Um, thanks for buying all of our best stuff over the years. Now, you can all go screw yourselves. But, please feel free to buy more of our stuff." -I don't think so, "Tim". I also agree with you on your consumer point-of-view. Thanks, man. -Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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